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Old 09-19-2012, 02:40 PM   #1
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Default How do you stand it...

...when your first Yorkie snarls at your new puppy?!?!

I know that I'm supposed to let them work the hierarchy out on their own and that I'm supposed to stay out of it unless things get out of hand. But I'm having a hard time!!!! My knee-jerk reaction is to tell Chloe to be nice! I do better when I can understand why Chloe is upset (like if Karli has just jumped on her or something) but when Karli is just minding her own business...it's hard!

The new puppy (Karli) is just so little and she wants so badly to play with Chloe (our 3 year old). It breaks my heart when Chloe is mean to her!! And I feel sorry for Chloe because she just seems so miserable. She rarely lays down for long, is pacing constantly. She doesn't want to be in a different room from where all the action is but she doesn't really want to be around Karli either!

We've only had Karli since Friday...so not even a week yet. I know it just takes time. I guess I'm just looking for some moral support and encouragement that I'm doing the right thing! Other than Chloe being nice and Karli constantly trying to escape the baby gates, this new puppy is a BREEZE! We've only had two accidents which we caught her in the middle of both times; she always goes potty when we take her outside; she is even recognizing her name and coming when called! Keeping my fingers crossed that it stays this way!
-C
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Old 09-19-2012, 02:51 PM   #2
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Aww the new baby sounds like a dream. I know it's hard but it will take time.
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Old 09-19-2012, 03:50 PM   #3
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Laddy was the same by Kyra for about the first 6 weeks. They are great friends now. I never let Laddy be mean to Kyra and if she jumped on him first I would just pick her up and redirect her attention. Good luck and congrats on the new baby.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:31 PM   #4
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Omg Big sister is jealous.

Congrats on your new puppy. What a pretty name give them time she has not been with you that long. Just give Chloe more attention, she fills the new puppy is a threat to her love from you.when you cuddle with them put one on each side of you so chole can not attack her . In no time they will be the best of buddy's.
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:44 PM   #5
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It's perfectly natural for them to go through this as you already know so follow Mother Nature and let them work it out over time as they would do in the wild. Often new members to a pack that aren't born into it are ostracized and tested - frequently. It's just what they do in order to test out the new member in all circumstances to see if this one should be added or rejected by the pack.

If the new member is basically unstable or has problems, the testing eventually proves they should drive the new one away so as not to endanger the pack due to some insufficiency in the newbie. But if accepted, the new member is slowly assimilated into the group and over time, becomes just another member with a vital role to play. Where there are only 2 in the pack, the more submissive and stable the new one is, the quicker the testing phase and acceptance but where there is a nervous new one or one that is perceived as weak, fearful, dominant, aggressive or some other undesired trait by the existing pack member, it will take quite a while and may never perfectly gel. Still other times, the new one that is more dominant may very well over time supersede your older dog and slowly become the pack leader and your older dog start to give way to the new leader. There could be a fight or two in the process but if they aren't too vicious and there is no real biting taking place, just bared teeth, a harmless nip or two, loud growling, barking and tussling, I wouldn't interfere. Dogs get loud when skirmishing and doing test fighting. Dogs use their teeth oftentimes as we use our hands or fists and if we slap someone, it's not the same thing as choking or a vicious blow to the nose with a balled up fist. So just because you see teeth, a nip or bite that isn't hard, think of it as a slap or hit. Just watch for the hard bite or prolonged attachment which represents a savage fist blow or choking and intervene to prevent injury.

Usually it won't come to that unless you have two dominant dogs vying for alpha roll and if that's the case, it will take time for them to work out some type of mostly peaceful coexistence, with occasional fights along the way. Most neutered/spayed dominant dogs in a pack of two with a strong pack leader human will soon learn vicious attacks are never allowed and work it out, though they won't be best buddies ever.

But most housedogs are eventually very glad they have a true canine pack member join them in the home in time as they are extremely social pack animals and usually love having another canine presence in the home. I imagine it's like living in another country where the people are lovely, you have wonderful new friends and you are doing great with no complaints at all but having a nice American from your home town who knew your family move in next door is better still. And even if she has one or two things about her you might not be happy with and those take some adjusting to, it's still really nice to have her there. And if she turns out to have your same ways and interests and give you lots of support and friendship, is always there for you, you'll be thrilled for your friend from home.
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:33 AM   #6
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I am of a different mindset on this matter. I feel a puppy is at a disadvantage going up against an older dog, and is due your protection, as you put her in this situation. Just as the older dog would be also due your protection if the pup was bothering her too much.

Just as in a single dog household, the puppy needs you for nurturing, training, love, emotional developement, nourishment, and a safe place to sleep, in order for it to develope a stong self esteem and grow into a well adjusted adult.

In the wild, yes, there are puppies in packs. But the Mommas watch over and protect those puppies from other members until they are a bit older and are ready to learn their place in the pack. Also, most of the time, pack members are related somewhere along the line.

Pack mentality is great and can explain alot of behavior going on in any established group, but you are just now forming a pack with your dogs and yourselves, which in itself is an unnatural occurence.

You are expecting an older dog, who has led a life of being the only dog member of a pack with humans, to accept a new member without ever being in that situation itself, and to 'teach it the rules', of which it is clueless. The only thing a single dog would think is that it's lifestyle/life as he knows it is being threatened by an intruder.

Another thought... from the human point of view... everyone tells their first dog, we're getting a new puppy... you will have a new little brother or sister. That still makes you the Mommie, the rulemaker, the enforcer. Even human toddlers will get jealous of a new baby, and can try and hurt the baby that all of a sudden has taken all Mommie's attention away.

So I would change up real fast on how you're treating this puppy, IMHO. I would get some rules in place for the older dog, and set up a safe zone for the puppy where she does not feel threatened for breathing. It's good to give the older dog more attention, so that she feels less threatened by the puppy, and you'll be reinforcing your bond with her at the same time. The puppy won't be affected by this, she doesn't know any better at this point in time. She's busy discovering the world around her. Have separate puppy time for you and her, to establish that bond. Then have supervised time for the dogs and humans to be together, where you teach each one what is expected of them when any situation presents itself.
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:46 AM   #7
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I would for the most part let them work it out. They are establishing their place in the pact and you dont want to give Chloe any ideas shes being replaced or it could take along time for her to accept new pup if ever. The only time I would interfere is if someone is getting hurt. So if you here a yelp or see something like an ear getting pulled or something intervene.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:06 AM   #8
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By the way I realize thats what your doing now I just wanted to tell you I agree with it. Just keep it up and they will be pals before you know it
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:59 AM   #9
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The best advise I got here on YT was that it would take a month! great advise- it took exactly that. Also I found that I had to let Ziva know that Abby was important to me and I did not need to be "protected "from her- that sometimes the baby came first. They are great friends but rarely lovey...
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:31 PM   #10
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First let me say you have gotten some very good advice, even if every one does not feel exactly the same.
WHAT About My Place ? Adding new family members can be stressful. Each member human and canine alike have to figure out where the newest member fits. Older Yorkies may feel threatened and try to bully the new Yorkie especially if they are the same sex and both adults. If this is what is happening You may want to remind both dogs that you are the Mommy. You are the PLP (Provider, Leader, Protector) We do not allow any physical attacks between family members. The one who is being a bully gets a 5 minuet time out in the laundry room, alone with the door shut. (The PLP makes the rules and protects.) We do not correct play fights, warning growls or high pitched protest barks. If dogs get stiff legged with ears pointed foreword, tail barely moving, teeth with gums showing, direct eye contact for more than a few seconds, eyes that are narrow little slits, (some Yorkies can stiffen the hair on their back and neck area) these things all point to serious aggression. Break the fight trance. Throw a pillow past them, use a cue word like Enough, or Stop It , stomp your foot or clap. Give them a cool down period in different rooms.
A different kind of problem is an adult with a puppy. The adult is unhappy about the the pup and does not want to share the people, and resources with the little intruder. In this case we only interfere if the adult dog makes the pup yelp. If the adult makes a puppy yelp, we correct the adult firmly with the cue word 'Enough' said firmly. If necessary we give the adult a brief time out. We always feed adults and puppies separately. Puppies should eat puppy food in their safe crate, where they don't have to compete or protect their food. Hope this helps.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:49 AM   #11
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Thanks so much for all the advice and support! Teresa, you're description of the "dangerous signs" was very helpful. I think a part of my problem is just that I've never seen Chloe be aggressive, so it all seems intimidating. I've actually seen very few exhibitions of aggression from ANY dog. Knowing the signs will help me to tell when Chloe is getting carried away. I have noticed that she gets worked up in stages; the longer she is allowed to continue, the worse she gets.

I've been trying to teach her limits...i.e., it is okay to rebuke Karli when she gets rough or tries to take a toy away or something, but it is not okay to be mean to her when she is just walking by and minding her own business. It's really tough when Karli is playing chase/having the "zoomies"...Chloe seems at first to want to chase and play back (which I want), but it is like suddenly instinct takes over and she's TOO aggressive towards Karli. It's tough balance.

Chloe has in the past two days started a new behavior. When Karli is sleeping, Chloe will go over and paw at her. Not gently, but also not hard enough to hurt. Just insistently. The first time it happened, Karli was lying next to me and I thought Chloe was trying to make her move. But it happened again last night while Karli was lying in the floor, within arms reach but not up against me at all. No idea what that's about! Chloe definitely seems to like Karli better when she's sleeping though! She'll actually lay within 10 or 12 inches of her, as long as she's being still.

I know it will just take time, but I'm terrified of doing something wrong because these first few weeks/months are such formative years in a puppy's life. Right now, our biggest problem is Karli howling/crying to get out of her crate. She does perfectly at night, sleeps all night without a peep. But during the day!!! Oh my gosh! She cried for a solid 20 minutes at least yesterday. This is a sticking point with me though...I use play pens for safety (like at holidays/during big family meals, etc.) when I need the dogs out from under foot for their own good. I've got to find a way to teach Karli that when she is in her pen or crate, she's got to be quiet. Any suggestions for that would be appreciate as well!
-C
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