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Old 12-22-2011, 11:23 AM   #1
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Omg My Yorkie is no Lab

This should probably be under training/behavior forum, but I thought it would get more attention here:

(Sorry it's so lengthy)

My 11 week old yorkie, Bubba, has definitely been a reality check for my husband and me. Bubba was in a pen with his brother, completely lined with newspaper, beds to the left, feeding bowl in the center before we got him. Trying to ween him from the newspaper pen, to a newspaper crate was a JOKE. The last 48 hours he has just been in a crate, and the pen is now a potty area "OUTSIDE". No accidents since eliminating all newspaper...there is hope.

Also, Bubba's teeth came in before his brother's came in (total bully), and they were separated from their mom at 8 weeks (she was ill), so he had developed the worst manners imaginable... I cannot begin to describe the lack of bite restraint, he made us BLEED several times Just playing with toys, he becomes aggressive, growling, shaking, tearing the object. Correcting that, reinforcing good play manners with treats, has helped.

The reality is that I currently don't have a cuddly puppy, I have an ill mannered little %$#@, GRRRRRR. Our current status is that of drill sergeant and recruit... I am confident that, although I won't have it as soon as I expected, I will have a non-aggressive, obedient little buddy.

My husband and I have debated whether, as he says, the breed's temperament is not that of a training/working breed, they are lap dogs and for generations haven't been bred to learn. I argue, that Bubba is a product of his environment, how critical it is for the puppies to remain with their mothers, so much is taught to them while in the litter with mom. I have hope, and Bubba has shown progress, albeit slow, but is progressing. Hubby is on board and is my co-sergeant. My 12 year old is so sad that we "talk to the puppy like we're mad", but we are just being direct, establishing the dominant role.

With Bubba this way, his time with Charlie, our lab is very limited. Charlie is so curious, but bless his heart, so patient and understanding. Charlie has never been aggressive to another dog, I don't know if spending more time with Charlie would be beneficial to Bubba?

Thanks for reading. I appreciate any input and clarification as far as the breed temperament and our approach. I value all the ones who have been there, done that and now have great balanced pack at home. Thanks everyone.
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Old 12-22-2011, 01:16 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by PattiNumber_H View Post
This should probably be under training/behavior forum, but I thought it would get more attention here:

(Sorry it's so lengthy)

My 11 week old yorkie, Bubba, has definitely been a reality check for my husband and me. Bubba was in a pen with his brother, completely lined with newspaper, beds to the left, feeding bowl in the center before we got him. Trying to ween him from the newspaper pen, to a newspaper crate was a JOKE. The last 48 hours he has just been in a crate, and the pen is now a potty area "OUTSIDE". No accidents since eliminating all newspaper...there is hope.

Also, Bubba's teeth came in before his brother's came in (total bully), and they were separated from their mom at 8 weeks (she was ill), so he had developed the worst manners imaginable... I cannot begin to describe the lack of bite restraint, he made us BLEED several times Just playing with toys, he becomes aggressive, growling, shaking, tearing the object. Correcting that, reinforcing good play manners with treats, has helped.

The reality is that I currently don't have a cuddly puppy, I have an ill mannered little %$#@, GRRRRRR. Our current status is that of drill sergeant and recruit... I am confident that, although I won't have it as soon as I expected, I will have a non-aggressive, obedient little buddy.

My husband and I have debated whether, as he says, the breed's temperament is not that of a training/working breed, they are lap dogs and for generations haven't been bred to learn. I argue, that Bubba is a product of his environment, how critical it is for the puppies to remain with their mothers, so much is taught to them while in the litter with mom. I have hope, and Bubba has shown progress, albeit slow, but is progressing. Hubby is on board and is my co-sergeant. My 12 year old is so sad that we "talk to the puppy like we're mad", but we are just being direct, establishing the dominant role.

With Bubba this way, his time with Charlie, our lab is very limited. Charlie is so curious, but bless his heart, so patient and understanding. Charlie has never been aggressive to another dog, I don't know if spending more time with Charlie would be beneficial to Bubba?

Thanks for reading. I appreciate any input and clarification as far as the breed temperament and our approach. I value all the ones who have been there, done that and now have great balanced pack at home. Thanks everyone.

Like children, all Yorkie personalities are different. You can have a cuddle bug or have one that's Mr. Independant. It all depends.
However, with trinaing a Yorkie, the general consensus that ususally work is positive reinforcement. Although your methods may work, it's focusing what he does good and making a huge deal out of it.

I.E. when he goes out to go potty, treats, treats, and more treats, and cheer until you cannot cheer anymore. Also using a postice tone with him instead of always yelling may help as well. This pup may just be reacting to the tone in your voice. He may seem aggressive but deep down is really terrified.

You got this pup really young and this is the fall out from it. You're going to have no be more scheduled. Not drill sergant but more task oriented. Everything needs to be consistant. You need to train yourself as well as him.

Welcome to the world of toy breed dog ownership.
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Old 12-22-2011, 02:07 PM   #3
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Just a quick reply if that's ok - before I thoroughly think about it

Firstly, little Bubba is still very young. And it's a bit shell-shocking, especially in comparison with a 12 year old labrador.

We had a lab pre-Harry - and within days the comparisons were of course drawn. But then I really, deeply thought about when our Rosie (lab) was his age. It is very easy to forget everything that you go through at this stage (a bit like giving birth!! ).

Rosie lab ate everything in sight - including our carpets and the kitchen door, her playpen, my driving glasses, the car seat - but after about 1 year old, I'd forgotten about it all. It's only thinking about it recently, thinking about these threads - that it reminds me of how things sometimes were!

She learnt, she got trained - little Bubba will. Rosie did - certainly Harry has (in fact, more quickly than our lab did - which surprised me!! ). Please don't lose heart - please integrate them as soon and as much as possible - and please thoroughly enjoy your family! Sally + Harry x
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Old 12-22-2011, 02:50 PM   #4
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I'm going to chime in here too. It is so true how quickly we forget the puppy stages! I too had a "growler" but not a nipper. This was my BRT. My Yorkie as a pup neither nipped nor growled, but as you have now realized staying with Mom and breeder until 12 wks is almost always recommended.

I want to introduce the concept of "hard" versus "soft dog". And it has nothing to do with the type of breed at all, each breed within the breed can have "hard" or "soft" dogs. By these terms I mean the following: a hard dog will shrug off just about the most firm correction you can muster to give. He will either accept correction "in the moment" or ignore you and go on about doing what he was doing. The acceptance is only in the moment, how-ever, 5 minutes, or 2minutes, or 2 hours later he is back to doing that misbehaviour that got the correction. They usually are supremely confident dogs and self assured dogs. But headstrong, oh yes, and will not hide or try to sneak around the discipline, they are in your face showing you No Nope not doing that!. You can raise your voice till the cows come home, and it has very little or no effect. That is a hard dog. Now understand this is also relative to breed size. What may pass for "hard dog" in a Yorkie, would be a soft dog in a larger breed.

A "soft" dog will literally cringe if you raise your voice a few decibels. They will even cower at the sound of your loud tones. But that doesn't necessarily mean they've learnt the lesson you are trying to teach at all. Often times the soft dog more passively resists the obedience command, obeys for a few seconds, then breaks the command.

this hard/soft is an inborn nature. Can be exaggerated or minimized by the early rearing skills of the dam and the breeder.

So observe your dog when you correct him. What is his body language saying? A video tape is very useful for this. If he bites you and you let out a real yelp an Oowie; how does he respond? Does he immediately let go? Does he turn his head away? Does he release and either laydown or sit, or walk away? Does he let go and immediately come back in to a different area for another nip?

I believe that all dogs are not borne of the same temperament or disposition, and training methods need to be adjusted for their innate nature. If a firmer tone of voice is working for you and for your dog; then use it!. But observe your dog's response. Be open to changing it up a bit. See what is working best for you two.

I own one very hard dog, one very soft dog, and one in between the two. My very hard dog was my first competitive obedience boy and we work thousands of hours to bring him to the good natured man he now is. My next dog was somewhat in between the two, and so small a Yorkie. I was deadly afaird to hurt him. So I worked more with my trainer to learn the proper techniques at the right level for this one. My third dog was and is very soft. She is the hardest bar none to train!.

I wish the best of luck with the training. Bite inhibition is so very important and I'm glad to see/hear you are making progress with it.
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Old 12-22-2011, 02:56 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Taryn0405 View Post
Like children, all Yorkie personalities are different. You can have a cuddle bug or have one that's Mr. Independant. It all depends.
However, with trinaing a Yorkie, the general consensus that ususally work is positive reinforcement. Although your methods may work, it's focusing what he does good and making a huge deal out of it.

I.E. when he goes out to go potty, treats, treats, and more treats, and cheer until you cannot cheer anymore. Also using a postice tone with him instead of always yelling may help as well. This pup may just be reacting to the tone in your voice. He may seem aggressive but deep down is really terrified.

You got this pup really young and this is the fall out from it. You're going to have no be more scheduled. Not drill sergant but more task oriented. Everything needs to be consistant. You need to train yourself as well as him.

Welcome to the world of toy breed dog ownership.
Thank you, yes I think about the stern voice I use, and he may become fearful therefore aggressive. I have been using a lot of treats, learn to earn, and probably not enough celebratory praise. As far as everything being a consistent, that is our priority, routine, routine, routine. Can I ask you, he seems to become fearful and nippy when I put a collar on him when he is down, but not at all while being held? And while playing aggressively with a toy if I try to get the toy or settle him down, he turns on me, then gets scared? Is this toy breed, self-defense? It is bizarre, I've trained a few other breeds and this is a first.
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Old 12-22-2011, 03:09 PM   #6
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I'm going to chime in here too. It is so true how quickly we forget the puppy stages! I too had a "growler" but not a nipper. This was my BRT. My Yorkie as a pup neither nipped nor growled, but as you have now realized staying with Mom and breeder until 12 wks is almost always recommended.

I want to introduce the concept of "hard" versus "soft dog". And it has nothing to do with the type of breed at all, each breed within the breed can have "hard" or "soft" dogs. By these terms I mean the following: a hard dog will shrug off just about the most firm correction you can muster to give. He will either accept correction "in the moment" or ignore you and go on about doing what he was doing. The acceptance is only in the moment, how-ever, 5 minutes, or 2minutes, or 2 hours later he is back to doing that misbehaviour that got the correction. They usually are supremely confident dogs and self assured dogs. But headstrong, oh yes, and will not hide or try to sneak around the discipline, they are in your face showing you No Nope not doing that!. You can raise your voice till the cows come home, and it has very little or no effect. That is a hard dog. Now understand this is also relative to breed size. What may pass for "hard dog" in a Yorkie, would be a soft dog in a larger breed.

A "soft" dog will literally cringe if you raise your voice a few decibels. They will even cower at the sound of your loud tones. But that doesn't necessarily mean they've learnt the lesson you are trying to teach at all. Often times the soft dog more passively resists the obedience command, obeys for a few seconds, then breaks the command.

this hard/soft is an inborn nature. Can be exaggerated or minimized by the early rearing skills of the dam and the breeder.

So observe your dog when you correct him. What is his body language saying? A video tape is very useful for this. If he bites you and you let out a real yelp an Oowie; how does he respond? Does he immediately let go? Does he turn his head away? Does he release and either laydown or sit, or walk away? Does he let go and immediately come back in to a different area for another nip?

I believe that all dogs are not borne of the same temperament or disposition, and training methods need to be adjusted for their innate nature. If a firmer tone of voice is working for you and for your dog; then use it!. But observe your dog's response. Be open to changing it up a bit. See what is working best for you two.

I own one very hard dog, one very soft dog, and one in between the two. My very hard dog was my first competitive obedience boy and we work thousands of hours to bring him to the good natured man he now is. My next dog was somewhat in between the two, and so small a Yorkie. I was deadly afaird to hurt him. So I worked more with my trainer to learn the proper techniques at the right level for this one. My third dog was and is very soft. She is the hardest bar none to train!.

I wish the best of luck with the training. Bite inhibition is so very important and I'm glad to see/hear you are making progress with it.
Thanks and yes, I too am afraid to hurt Bubba the yorkie, the correction I was used to using with the lab, just my hand biting his throat, Bubba screams bloody murder before I ever make contact. When Bubba bites, and I yelp, owwwwww, he stops and attempts to bite another spot, I mentioned this to my vet, my vet suggested gagging him with the finger he is nipping??

This is the one area that I seem to be dead ending in? I would consider a trainer, I wish I could be the one to teach him. Something tells me I'll be shopping trainers in my area.
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Old 12-22-2011, 03:34 PM   #7
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Yes that is one technique. He nips/nibbles on finger and you push finger in the mouth. The dog should gag if not the technique is not quite as effective. Be careful though our Yorkies mouths are so small.

Going after another spot is not unusual, not desirable, but not unusual. I think for him as his pattern is going after another spot; then remove him from your company; pick him up and put him in his crate or xpen, with a firm No, No bite. Let him stay for 5 minutes or so; then if he is not crying to get out, open door and let him out, with only a mild good boy, out you come.

The other thing you might try is to hand feed him his meals. Kibble by kibble. He must take the kibble gently, or no kibble. You can ask him to sit and reward him. Ask him to come and reward him; Etc.

Also umblical leashing is a good tool as well. You harness your dog up and put leash on harness and wrap the lead around your waist. Where you go, your dog goes. I've used this too for my hard boy,and it helped a lot. Just don't overdo it. Maybe a month no more of this umbilical training; coupled with hand feeding his meals; and I'd hope you will see a big difference.
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Old 12-22-2011, 03:45 PM   #8
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Ooooh wow this is a good thread! I have a very head strong, independent Yorkie? Though in new situations she likes to be close and even held. But at home she is at time defiant. Def not a cuddle bug, yet. I am kinda hoping this will change and when she passes thru the high energy of puppyhood. But she doesnt listen worth a crap. Though she is treat motivated. She is 13 wks, si i always wonder if I am expecting too much out of her. We do try and be consistant and keep her on a schedule, so she always knows what to expect....meal time, naps, potty breaks...etc.

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Old 12-22-2011, 04:13 PM   #9
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Yes that is one technique. He nips/nibbles on finger and you push finger in the mouth. The dog should gag if not the technique is not quite as effective. Be careful though our Yorkies mouths are so small.

Going after another spot is not unusual, not desirable, but not unusual. I think for him as his pattern is going after another spot; then remove him from your company; pick him up and put him in his crate or xpen, with a firm No, No bite. Let him stay for 5 minutes or so; then if he is not crying to get out, open door and let him out, with only a mild good boy, out you come.

The other thing you might try is to hand feed him his meals. Kibble by kibble. He must take the kibble gently, or no kibble. You can ask him to sit and reward him. Ask him to come and reward him; Etc.

Also umblical leashing is a good tool as well. You harness your dog up and put leash on harness and wrap the lead around your waist. Where you go, your dog goes. I've used this too for my hard boy,and it helped a lot. Just don't overdo it. Maybe a month no more of this umbilical training; coupled with hand feeding his meals; and I'd hope you will see a big difference.

I do hand feed his kibble treats to him, and he does good until he's rough-housed with his toys, soon after he becomes nippy at everything, even when trying to take him out of the crate Then, I say "That's a NO", but I haven't just walked away. I will. I will say "no" and wait 5 minutes before I try again. Should he have a separate time out area, apart from the sleep crate?

He has learned 3 commands, sit, come, brush. He is smart and capable, it's just the part where he has gotten aggressive with toys, then for example, I'll hold the brush and say "brush" he'll come over and let me brush him but then I go to put the treat in his mouth and he nips? I suppose once he nips, say "no" put him back, but then the "brush, sit, or come" command is lost in the confusion It is almost like he needs a reset button before I ever attempt to train/reward him.
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Old 12-22-2011, 04:30 PM   #10
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We had a lab before Dinky. Their temperaments are nothing alike. Clyde the lab was so laid back. Dinky is not a very hyper little boy, but compared to Clyde, he would seem so. Also we remember Clyde as an adult dog, by the time he passed on he was extremely wise and mature.
Clyde did catch on fast, and Dinky has what I think is a much longer learning curve. He is smarter in some ways though than Clyde was. Dinky can use his little paws much more cleverly than Clyce could.
I do think your Yorkie will begin to learn from your Lab. Just be patient and keep training him.
Also, Yorkies are much more emotional than Labs. I think Dinky is much more upset when when scold him than Clyde ever was. He is definitely less independent than Clyde was.
Good Luck, I am sure you will all adjust to each other!
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Old 12-22-2011, 04:41 PM   #11
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I do hand feed his kibble treats to him, and he does good until he's rough-housed with his toys, soon after he becomes nippy at everything, even when trying to take him out of the crate Then, I say "That's a NO", but I haven't just walked away. I will. I will say "no" and wait 5 minutes before I try again. Should he have a separate time out area, apart from the sleep crate?

He has learned 3 commands, sit, come, brush. He is smart and capable, it's just the part where he has gotten aggressive with toys, then for example, I'll hold the brush and say "brush" he'll come over and let me brush him but then I go to put the treat in his mouth and he nips? I suppose once he nips, say "no" put him back, but then the "brush, sit, or come" command is lost in the confusion It is almost like he needs a reset button before I ever attempt to train/reward him.
Awh know this one well. Don't let him have the treat if he nips. Say gentle, In fact say gentle before you treat him. Use a closed fist within which the treat is held. Gently command, if nip, no open of fist for treat and say NO bite!. Re offer treat Do over and over and over again until he takes treat gently. Then give him two treats! and a big Good Boy!!!!

But with what you have described is a_ he obeys come over and brush command, then you brush him, and you go to reward him, and he nips. And no if he has come when called for brushing, you do the brushing, and then the treat, he will not link back a discipline for no nip when you treat him.
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Old 12-22-2011, 04:44 PM   #12
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We had a biter too, vet said to get training or don't bring him back. The groomer said the same thing. Guess what, I got him puppy training from the groomer, the best thing we ever did. We were in Huntsville Alabama at the time and our groomer also was into training along with her mom who was a professional dog trainer. After just a few sessions my Sam was a different pup. He is awesome now, very loving. I had to show him I was the boss. I never had to hurt him in any way with his training. Mostly it was alot of eye contact, he did't like it at first but he soon learned I was mama boss!
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Old 12-22-2011, 05:32 PM   #13
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Awh know this one well. Don't let him have the treat if he nips. Say gentle, In fact say gentle before you treat him. Use a closed fist within which the treat is held. Gently command, if nip, no open of fist for treat and say NO bite!. Re offer treat Do over and over and over again until he takes treat gently. Then give him two treats! and a big Good Boy!!!!

But with what you have described is a_ he obeys come over and brush command, then you brush him, and you go to reward him, and he nips. And no if he has come when called for brushing, you do the brushing, and then the treat, he will not link back a discipline for no nip when you treat him.
Yes, you are right, I need to treat for coming to the brush and re-reward for the brushing. I have only given the treat after the brushing, that's when he nips and the treat falls then I feel almost obligated to allow him to have it because of the "good brush" training command I've said.

Thank you, the next command he learns will be "gentle", "no bite". This seems like an essential command for a biter. I taught our lab the "slowly" command for taking his treats, not because he ever nipped but just the slobber he would get all over our hands.

Thanks again
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Old 12-22-2011, 05:46 PM   #14
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We had a lab before Dinky. Their temperaments are nothing alike. Clyde the lab was so laid back. Dinky is not a very hyper little boy, but compared to Clyde, he would seem so. Also we remember Clyde as an adult dog, by the time he passed on he was extremely wise and mature.
Clyde did catch on fast, and Dinky has what I think is a much longer learning curve. He is smarter in some ways though than Clyde was. Dinky can use his little paws much more cleverly than Clyce could.
I do think your Yorkie will begin to learn from your Lab. Just be patient and keep training him.
Also, Yorkies are much more emotional than Labs. I think Dinky is much more upset when when scold him than Clyde ever was. He is definitely less independent than Clyde was.
Good Luck, I am sure you will all adjust to each other!
Emotional!!! Excellent description. Charlie our lab, has always taken direction like a true follower, eager to please. Bubba it seems, could care less if you are happy with him or not. Like I mentioned earlier, I do need to praise Bubba a lot more, tons more in fact. I do recall Charlie as a pup, and although it was equally time consuming, he seemed, like you said, more dependent on what we wanted. Where Bubba is just happy to do his own thing, in fact a bit hesitant to play the treat games, where Charlie would try like crazy to figure out what it was we wanted, he was so cute, if all else failed, he would just sit next to you and try to put his nose into your leg, as to say, "I sowwry mom". Such a sweet, sweet dog.

I already love Bubba, and today was a great day for us, lots of exercise, lots of love, lots of treats, one bite only, but no accidents. Posting here, and reading all the advice really makes me try harder.

Thanks again everyone
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Old 12-22-2011, 06:10 PM   #15
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I think all young puppies want to bite but some more than others. My little girl was a biter from the beginning. She would also growl at times. It seemed she was playing but I did not care for that type of play. I had to be very careful not to get her excited. You know how when people see a puppy they want it to play and run around and they try to play tug with it? Well, none of that for Gracie. She had to be kept calm and get lots of exercise. We did lots of walks to keep her energy level down. She learned the word "No" very quickly though I had to be very stern with her. Some terriers have an aggressive personality and although playful they also need to know the rules. We went though a couple of difficult months but she is a good dog now. I did find that everyone who came in the house had to know how to deal with her. She learned to respect me and know what I expected of her but she would try to be aggressive with other members of the family and visitors who had not set up boundaries for her. When one of my daughters moved back home when Gracie was about 10 months old Gracie would just go crazy when she would come in the door. She would jump and want to wrestle and chew! My daughter thought it was cute at first. It's not "cute" when you have a razor toothed little dog chewing on your fingers and jumping on you all the time and she found that out real quick.
It may seem really difficult right now but if you are patient and don't give up your little guy will learn he is not the boss and has to do what you say.
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