Spay and Neuter: When and If ever?

[gemy]

Questioning Traditional Neutering Recommendations for Dogs speakingforspot.com

[gemy]

Originally Posted by theporkieyorkie

Very interesting articles!!

There's always a flip side to everything. I still think, in most situations, I'd rather see dogs spayed/neutered. It may, however, be better for owners to hold off until the dog is a little older.

What I am prepared to say with the most recent research released to the public, is that there is an obvious concern with de-sexing large breed dogs, that in many of the large breeds makes neutering(I use this as a generic term) decision should be made on a case by case basis. If you increase the incidence of Hip Dysplasia by even 50% by neutering over what is the current incidence of HD (in many large breeds it is 20% and beyond) that means you up the incidence rate to 30% and in some breeds to 45-50%. A total hip replacement is a very expensive operation, that is only moderately successful with the large breeds. FHO surgery is not recommended for large breeds. This can literally be a death sentence for a young dog! Now you add in the increased cancer risk and some are very aggressive cancers, your concern is increased!

There is an obvious uptick of interest in the vet community on this important subject; as there very well should be. I posted earlier that there is on-going right now a 10,000 GR study; the results of which are going to be eagerly read.

The toy breeds are another kettle of fish so to speak; again in my opinion.

[iLoveLittleRoxy]

Originally Posted by gemy

Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete

I've attached one link that talks about this issue, but there are many, many more sites, that incorporate recent (let's say past 5-7 yrs of research), by unbiased evaluators of the multiplicity of research available on this subject.

For many pet owners, it is almost an automatic decision to spay and neuter their pet. After all the vet recommends it, rescue does it as a matter of policy, your breeder wants it, and everywhere you turn you are advised to spay and or neuter your pet.

You are told categorically that it is overwhelming better for the health of your pet: well that is not "categorically so". Research throws some clear light onto this matter.



What I believe you need to separate out from all this is a couple of things; one: there is a pet overpopulation problem (and if you spay and neuter obviously you can't contribute to this), and the vested interests of both vets and breeders and rescues to spay and neuter.

Vets have an economic interest in the spay and neuter process. Breeders want to protect their lines, and make sure their lines are not deliberately or inadvertenly bred.

So as a concerned pet owner and a Responsible one, what do you do?

In my opinion first you want to make sure that the growth plates are closed before any spay and or neutering is considered. It is different for each breed of dog, and also within each line of that breed. But not for almost all breeds before 12 months of age, and in some 18 to 24 months ( eg:large breed dogs). I say this because early and especially very early neutering and spaying prior to 5 mths old, result in structural abnormalities and their resultant cocommittant osteopaedic problems that a pet owner should not have to deal with. Not to mention the increased risk of cancer, ligament tears, and dysplasia.

What does this mean to you as a dog owner?. For females they will go through at least one heat and maybe two, and must be safeguarded from breeding. Safeguarding does NOT mean belly bands and panties, but crates and separate feeding and exercise times for 5 wks or maybe 6wks, starting from as early as 6mths old for toy breeds, or 9 mths old for larger breeds, once heat has commenced.
For the male puppy, you make sure they don't roam free, and if they mark their territory so be it. You can with effort (akin to housebreaking) train your male not to mark in the house.

The research is clear at least for males, and somewhat less clear for females, that only looking at "health" and not other issues, that for the majority of male dogs, neutering Does Not provide significantly increased health over the long term, in fact the opposite.

Some fallacies that seem to be negated when studies are examined:

Neutering makes behavioural (beneficial changes in the males), specifically aggression..... Not so, In fact more aggression is observed in neutered males.
Neutering makes marking less....... Not clear or proven


Spay incontinence is so common; a term which was developed to describe what can happen after spay/neuter. This means your dog female or male. can't hold their bladder, and you as the pet owner must constantly over the life of your pet be prepared to clean up after urine discharge.

Believe you me, I don't want irresposnible breeding, but I don't want others to be sold a bill of goods either. That bill being, spaying/neutering is categorically good for the health of your pet.

well its like everything in life what can do someone good can be bad for others. my cousins friend had her tubes tied and she got many side effects, like anxiety,depression, facial hair and rashes throught her body. all those effects along with 45lbs of weight gain in 4 weeks happened tome with the mirena. when i removed it and got my tubes tied everything went away im normal again but im no longer 120lbs im 165. i got the mirena because my same cousin had it and she lost weight. everyone is different. i agree with what you say, its not always just good theres always a bad to something.

[melmorr]

Do not do it too early or too late. I had my intact male for 10 years and on the advice of my vet had him fixed, only to get a phone call telling me he died from the surgery. If you are going to do this do it at a young age but not too young. This is a surgery that is done every day of the week but it is still surgery and don't think that you are not risking the life of you dog just so you will not have to be on top of them and keep them safe when they are in heat. Some times the Vet is just trying to get into you pocket!$$$. I do not fix my females until the third heat and I will never do a male after 4 years. I learned my lesson the hard way and believe me it is still hard to this day!

[gemy]

Originally Posted by melmorr

Do not do it too early or too late. I had my intact male for 10 years and on the advice of my vet had him fixed, only to get a phone call telling me he died from the surgery. If you are going to do this do it at a young age but not too young. This is a surgery that is done every day of the week but it is still surgery and don't think that you are not risking the life of you dog just so you will not have to be on top of them and keep them safe when they are in heat. Some times the Vet is just trying to get into you pocket!$$$. I do not fix my females until the third heat and I will never do a male after 4 years. I learned my lesson the hard way and believe me it is still hard to this day!

I am interested in why the vet recommended neutering a 10 year old male. Were there prostate problems evident on examination.... some other condition?

This can be a very interesting discussion amongst we dog owners. End of life decisions don't just start with age related problems. I think the discussion can be enriched through breed specific knowledge. Keeping current on recent research et al.

It is a topic that has been on my mind for some time. I am a large dog breeder and the average life expectancy for my breed is approx. 10 yrs, or if you'd like a range 8-12 years.

I just had this discussion of neutering my male last month, he was approx. 7.5 yrs old. I asked the vet why? Well he said maybe testicular cancer, or prostate cancer. I said both are relatively easily caught early. I asked did you know the average life expectancy is 8-12yrs for this breed? He said no I did not. My boy also has another complicating factor as he has lived with DLSS since he was 3yrs old. The surgery is very expensive for this, and as his condition was mild then, no surgery was advised at that time, but now it has progressed somewhat with arthritic changes into his L/S area. What we did decide to do, was do dental cleaning, at which time he had a full prostate examination while under sedation, and some other minor things done - like removal of sebaceous cysts which on examination were sebaceous cysts. His prostate is very slightly enlarged at this point in time nothing to worry about at all.

There are quality of life issues to consider. We as pet owners know our dogs the best. For Magic he lives to work, to play, to be active. The crate rest which was more than eight weeks when he was initially diagnosed with DLSS was very very hard on him. As well as the muscular atrophy was debilitating to him. And that is a very real issue with a heavy large breed. This means the owner might have to assist the dog from lifting up from a prone position, helping the dog with urination and defecation, tasks that require no little bit of strength with a dog of 120 lbs or so.

We as the human partners, and guardians of our dogs, can only do the best we can do, by making fully informed decisions for our pets. We are the ones responsible, to weigh all of the facts, and those ineffable things beyond the facts, that only we can measure and decide upon.

[melmorr]

Paladin had no health issues at the time of his surgery. The vet recommended he be fix because we had an intact female that we had adopted but could not be fix yet due to some health issues with her. She said it would be very hard on him to be around an intact female when she did go into season. I have no way of knowing if this would have been hard for him or not as he didn’t survive. What I have learned it that he should at his advanced age Not have been fixed as the risk of the Anastasia was greater than the benefit of fixing him. The only thing she did was line her pocket and nothing more.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by melmorr

Paladin had no health issues at the time of his surgery. The vet recommended he be fix because we had an intact female that we had adopted but could not be fix yet due to some health issues with her. She said it would be very hard on him to be around an intact female when she did go into season. I have no way of knowing if this would have been hard for him or not as he didn’t survive. What I have learned it that he should at his advanced age Not have been fixed as the risk of the Anastasia was greater than the benefit of fixing him. The only thing she did was line her pocket and nothing more.

ar

I can answer some of the question of would it have been hard on him at 10 yrs old to live in a home with a female in season? Part of the answer would be more informed if you or I knew the reason he did not survive the operation. Was pre op blood work done for instance? To help ascertain if his organs were healthy enough for anaesthesia? Were his lungs and heart in good condition?
But given good lungs and heart. When a female that lives in your home goes into heat, full males and for that matter neutered males, will and can not help but to smell the scent. Their interest in the female starts to become heightened. The worse period of time is when the female goes into something that is called standing heat which lasts for 4 maybe 5 days. Then the males whine and cry, and try their darnest to get to the female for mating. Now how hard would this be on a 10yrs old male, who has never before lived with an intact female, is and pardon the pun, hard to say. The arousal will increase heart rate and respiration, but with healthy heart and lungs, not such a health risk.

What is hard though is keeping the two separated for the whole duration of the heat. This means separate exercise times, and what is called crate and rotate.

[gemy]

A Modified Spay Procedure Preserving Female Dog Ovaries

[impish]

Gemy, I just wanted to thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention - that there are other schools of thought on this matter. Here's another recent article:

Health Issues Linked to Spaying and Neutering Dogs

The first step is you hope that one always makes an informed decision.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by impish

Gemy, I just wanted to thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention - that there are other schools of thought on this matter. Here's another recent article:

Health Issues Linked to Spaying and Neutering Dogs

The first step is you hope that one always makes an informed decision.

Your welcome. I am trying to keep this thread current as and when I find more recent research and or articles. I welcome if you do the same!

[Teegy]

I won't push spay or neuter, as often some dogs health dictates it's best to leave intact. But should you decide to and are able to, my views on this are leave it as long as you can to allow them to grown and develop properly and fully, and all their baby adult teeth have surfaced. Keeping in mind you need to be fully responsible at all times regarding their whereabouts and activities.

[Teegy]

Originally Posted by gemy

I asked the vet why? Well he said maybe testicular cancer, or prostate cancer.

I had a discussion with a vet several years ago regarding this. Her father had four intact male dogs he refused to fix that were 6 and up.
She was saying several times she had suggested fixing and he said why. She explained to me that there truly was no valid reason other than ensuring they didn't accidentally impregnate a female (which never happened as he apparently was a completely responsible dog owner). Also she explained that there is actually no medical research showing that males can get cancers from not being fixed.
I had a cocker spaniel for 13 years and I never fixed him, the poor fella died a virgin of colitis (he used to rip into my mum's garbage and eat everything from plastic to tin foil, so now I know more, I'm not surprised)

[Teegy]

That's a great article, I think I posted it on here and got not one comment

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Teegy

That's a great article, I think I posted it on here and got not one comment

Sorry about that Teegy.

[gemy]

A retrospective cohort study published in Feb 1 2014 of Journal of the American Veterinary Association.

The link provided is an article by Dr Becker, who with-in the article provides the link to the actual study.

In line with the GR and Rottweiler studies, more confirmation of the health risks to spayed/neutered animals.

I leave it to the readers to look up the study.

Will Spaying/Neutering Increase Your Dog's Risk of Cancer?