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Old 03-10-2015, 09:59 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 View Post
Anything involving dogs effects me. Anything to do with the breed I love effects me. It's very easy to see your going to breed yet you say the female is only going to reach 4 pounds and that concerns me. It may not seem like much but a pound is a big deal in a small dog and it's not reputable to breed a female under 5 pounds so I do hope you don't put this little babies life in jeopardy. The only reason to breed should also be to better there breed. You also should not breed a yorkie with temperament issues like your male has. People need to know the truth and the truth is for sure females are in danger if not fixed and science proves it. Life lessons prove it. Yep I love my dog so much I was not willing to risk cancer or poymentra.
Are you done? Since you know so much about me...what's my sign? Lol j/k. Seriously though I get it, you're an advocate for s/n, you think everyone should do it, there is no grey area, you think everyone is going to breed and those who don't s/n are irresponsible. Science supports what you say, but it also supports that issues can arise from lack of hormones. You're blinding yourself from important data because you're failing to see both sides. Which in your case is fine because at the end of the day you're responsible for Callie's well being just as I'm responsible for my babies. Not everyone thinks the same way that you do and just because they don't do what you agree with doesn't mean they have ulterior motives . No one in this thread has argued against s/n they've simply asked what are the positive/negatives. You love yorkies? So do I! And I don't have to agree with you to show it.
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:04 AM   #392
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Tubal ligation won't affect the rates of mammary tumors and pyometra, because the hormones (mammary tumors) and uterus (pyometra) are left intact. I'm just saying...

I believe that there are birth control injections for dogs--I'm not sure how widely used and accepted they are.

BTW, in answer to a previous comment, no, the chances of mammary tumors and pyometra aren't 100% in unspayed dogs, but do they really need to be? I think that a 20 to 40% risk is quite high enough for me to decide to spay my own dog(s). (Bella has already been spayed.)

If this thread turns into an all-out food fight, please send the ceviche my way .

Pyometra and mammary tumors are definitely to be considered, but I have a question....what about with larger breeds that have issues with anesthesia? Would spaying them be worth it? This is one of the reasons why our bully hasn't been fixed yet.

As for the ceviche...do u want plantains with that? I also make a mean mangorita
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:07 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by ColesMommy01 View Post
Pyometra and mammary tumors are definitely to be considered, but I have a question....what about with larger breeds that have issues with anesthesia? Would spaying them be worth it? This is one of the reasons why our bully hasn't been fixed yet.

As for the ceviche...do u want plantains with that? I also make a mean mangorita
Are the plantains fried and sweet, or prepared as mofongo? I'll take either . Unfortunately, health issues prevent me from drinking .

Here is a link to a PDF study that I posted much earlier in this thread. Tables 2 and 3 have cost/benefit analysis of spaying and neutering dogs. Enjoy!

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rootk001/gonadectomy.pdf

Last edited by pstinard; 03-10-2015 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:12 AM   #394
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Are you done? Since you know so much about me...what's my sign? Lol j/k. Seriously though I get it, you're an advocate for s/n, you think everyone should do it, there is no grey area, you think everyone is going to breed and those who don't s/n are irresponsible. Science supports what you say, but it also supports that issues can arise from lack of hormones. You're blinding yourself from important data because you're failing to see both sides. Which in your case is fine because at the end of the day you're responsible for Callie's well being just as I'm responsible for my babies. Not everyone thinks the same way that you do and just because they don't do what you agree with doesn't mean they have ulterior motives . No one in this thread has argued against s/n they've simply asked what are the positive/negatives. You love yorkies? So do I! And I don't have to agree with you to show it.
I'm also an advocate for reputable breeding, animal abuse and so on. There has been nothing to prove the cons of spaying but when they do show up then we I guess will see if I'm letting it blind me. My aunt had a hysterectomy and refused to take the hormones and she did just fine. This thread is going to become a reason for certain people who probably shouldn't have dogs anyway to not spay. It's not safe and the risks are very very real. You would think lovers of this breed and or members of this board who see the opsie breeding all the time would get that it's important but it seems to just be going whoosh over people's heads. This is sad and it makes me very sick to my stomach.
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:12 AM   #395
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Anyway, getting back to that Swedish insurance records study showing that unspayed female dogs (Yorkies included) have a significantly increased chance of developing mammary tumors and pyometra...

Here is a study that validates the methodology used in that study:

Scopus - Cookies Disabled <--This link has the abstract.

A. Egenvall, B.N. Bonnett, P. Olson, A. Hedhammar
Validation of computerized Swedish dog and cat insurance data against veterinary practice records

Prev. Vet. Med., 36 (1998), pp. 51–65

The link I gave should have the abstract.


Evidently the methodology used is widely accepted by the veterinary community, because I came across a 2015 study analyzing Japanese insurance records:


Breed, gender and age pattern of diagnosis for veterinary care in insured dogs in Japan during fiscal year 2010


Breed, gender and age pattern of diagnosis for veterinary care in insured dogs in Japan during fiscal year 2010.


Mai Inouea,
A. Hasegawab,
Y. Hosoic,
K. Sugiurad
Preventive Veterinary Medicine, In press.


This latter study included 10,622 Yorkies, and found that Yorkies were in the top 5 breeds at risk for the following major categories of illness: Digestive, Musculoskeletal, Dental, Hepatobiliary and pancreatic, and Neuromuscular. Hepatobiliary and pancreatic is especially interesting, since many Yorkietalk dogs have had liver and pancreas problems. The dogs at greater risk than Yorkies for liver and pancreas problems are: Maltese, Miniature Schnauzer, and Papillon. Pomeranian come next after Yorkies. These data are consistent with what we already know about Yorkies, both anecdotally, and from other kinds of studies.

I've sent PDF's of both articles to Gail (Gemy).

Thanks Phil you are an angel. Gawd if only we had a World Health Cochrane like Institute to cull all the research done all over the world!


Offer independent un-biased review of the research and do a I think it is called meta data analysis..!!
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:14 AM   #396
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Are the plantains fried and sweet, or prepared as mofongo? I'll take either . Unfortunately, health issues prevent me from drinking .

Here is a link to a PDF study that I posted much earlier in this thread. Tables 2 and 3 have cost/benefit analysis of spaying and neutering dogs. Enjoy!

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rootk001/gonadectomy.pdf

I'm Jamaican with a Southern upbringing hun OF COURSE they're sweet and fried!. As for the rita it'd be virgin, too early for drinking so I got ya! Thanks for the info! Saving it to show the hubs!
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:19 AM   #397
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I'm an advocate for tubal ligation. Keeps hormones functioning but removes the possibility of being impregnated. Also, I hear they have birth control for dogs, but I can barely get my two to take their hw meds. If the bc is an every day pill like one of the human equivalents it'd be out. Do they have shots like the Depo? Going to look....
I have not heard much about tubal ligation in dogs, but have seen mention lately of removing the ovaries.
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:21 AM   #398
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LOVE plantains but you all can have the ceviche.
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:21 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by pstinard View Post
Tubal ligation won't affect the rates of mammary tumors and pyometra, because the hormones (mammary tumors) and uterus (pyometra) are left intact. I'm just saying...

I believe that there are birth control injections for dogs--I'm not sure how widely used and accepted they are.

BTW, in answer to a previous comment, no, the chances of mammary tumors and pyometra aren't 100% in unspayed dogs, but do they really need to be? I think that a 20 to 40% risk is quite high enough for me to decide to spay my own dog(s). (Bella has already been spayed.)

If this thread turns into an all-out food fight, please send the ceviche my way .
Cerviche aside (we don't do raw food here).. I am so glad you posted the interpretation of the study. So we have a study that confirms the risk of mammary tumors is greater in unspayed females including Yorkies AND we have real life stories like my friend with her $5,000 in cancer treatments. Her dog had uterine cancer.

There is simply no good reason to leave a pet unspayed.
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:24 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by pstinard View Post
Tubal ligation won't affect the rates of mammary tumors and pyometra, because the hormones (mammary tumors) and uterus (pyometra) are left intact. I'm just saying...

I believe that there are birth control injections for dogs--I'm not sure how widely used and accepted they are.

BTW, in answer to a previous comment, no, the chances of mammary tumors and pyometra aren't 100% in unspayed dogs, but do they really need to be? I think that a 20 to 40% risk is quite high enough for me to decide to spay my own dog(s). (Bella has already been spayed.)

If this thread turns into an all-out food fight, please send the ceviche my way .
Thank you and I hope that people think long and hard about these facts before encouraging people not to s/n.

You can have my share of the ceviche (if I have a share...lol) and just toss me a few extra slices of the plantains.
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:33 AM   #401
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Dog Birth Control Options

For anyone that would be interested
: I love when we can debate without anyone getting in a tizzy for everyone! Except you Phil you get
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:42 AM   #402
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Cerviche aside (we don't do raw food here).. I am so glad you posted the interpretation of the study. So we have a study that confirms the risk of mammary tumors is greater in unspayed females including Yorkies AND we have real life stories like my friend with her $5,000 in cancer treatments. Her dog had uterine cancer.

There is simply no good reason to leave a pet unspayed.
Well, that's what I think, anyway. BTW, I'll take your ceviche. I don't raw feed Bella, but I do raw feed myself .
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:43 AM   #403
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I'm also an advocate for reputable breeding, animal abuse and so on. There has been nothing to prove the cons of spaying but when they do show up then we I guess will see if I'm letting it blind me. My aunt had a hysterectomy and refused to take the hormones and she did just fine. This thread is going to become a reason for certain people who probably shouldn't have dogs anyway to not spay. It's not safe and the risks are very very real. You would think lovers of this breed and or members of this board who see the opsie breeding all the time would get that it's important but it seems to just be going whoosh over people's heads. This is sad and it makes me very sick to my stomach.

Then Taylor you have not been reading the research, for certain breeds of dogs, there are very serious risks associated with spaying and neutering at or even earlier than 6 months old. For the Yorkshire Terrier other than one or two studies pointing towards hypothyroidism as an increased risk in s+n males n females, and of course spay incontinence, and one tantalizing research paper that looks at the hormonal impact on proper maturation of ligamentous structures - like the ACL, for female Yorkies at this point in time most pet females IMO should be spayed for their overall health - the key is when? Can we wait a little for growth plate closure and ligamentous tissue maturation? Would that help in the incidence rate of LP and ACL tears, and is decidedly rampant throughout our breed, and as you know is very painfull and also expensive to treat? Would the relatively small increase in Mammary Tumours of which 50% are benign offset the potentiality of reducing LP and ACL tears? Interesting question is it not?


At this early age say 1yr old or so - pyrometra is very very rare, so baring other research that might come out later, we just need to look at mammary increased cancer risk, and also avoiding urinary incontenience, and temperament changes, ACL tears medial luxating patellas as possible benefits to delaying spaying for a bit in time.


The Swedish study did not offer us any elucidation because as opposed to North American studies the bulk of the participants were intact. And god only knows why they only looked at two health problems - that to me is an interesting detail...


The decision you make as a pet owner I would like to see be well informed. Folks who are dedicated enough to slog through this huge thread, and read the research, are searching for informed answers.


The more information we have, the more complex our decisions become, and they should be, when we talk about major surgery, and a major impact into a dogs life.
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:51 AM   #404
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Then Taylor you have not been reading the research, for certain breeds of dogs, there are very serious risks associated with spaying and neutering at or even earlier than 6 months old. For the Yorkshire Terrier other than one or two studies pointing towards hypothyroidism as an increased risk in s+n males n females, and of course spay incontinence, and one tantalizing research paper that looks at the hormonal impact on proper maturation of ligamentous structures - like the ACL, for female Yorkies at this point in time most pet females IMO should be spayed for their overall health - the key is when? Can we wait a little for growth plate closure and ligamentous tissue maturation? Would that help in the incidence rate of LP and ACL tears, and is decidedly rampant throughout our breed, and as you know is very painfull and also expensive to treat? Would the relatively small increase in Mammary Tumours of which 50% are benign offset the potentiality of reducing LP and ACL tears? Interesting question is it not?


At this early age say 1yr old or so - pyrometra is very very rare, so baring other research that might come out later, we just need to look at mammary increased cancer risk, and also avoiding urinary incontenience, and temperament changes, ACL tears medial luxating patellas as possible benefits to delaying spaying for a bit in time.


The Swedish study did not offer us any elucidation because as opposed to North American studies the bulk of the participants were intact. And god only knows why they only looked at two health problems - that to me is an interesting detail...


The decision you make as a pet owner I would like to see be well informed. Folks who are dedicated enough to slog through this huge thread, and read the research, are searching for informed answers.


The more information we have, the more complex our decisions become, and they should be, when we talk about major surgery, and a major impact into a dogs life.
I don't believe for one minute that science will ever say that early s/n has an effect on yorkies with regards to torn CCLs.

For NOW it is proven that there is a risk of mammary tumors and pyometra .. and we all know that MOST pet owners are not equipped to deal with multiple unaltered pets. SO....my belief is the risk of those cancers far outweigh unknown/unproven benefits. Same for oopsie pregnancies. For the life of me, I don't understand how you can keep on saying this unless it just fits some agenda you have? It surely, in my opinion, is not what is best for the breed. In addition to horrible conditions they end up with, yorkies have been SO adversely affected by indiscriminate breeding.

Last edited by ladyjane; 03-10-2015 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 03-10-2015, 11:03 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by pstinard View Post
Tubal ligation won't affect the rates of mammary tumors and pyometra, because the hormones (mammary tumors) and uterus (pyometra) are left intact. I'm just saying...

I believe that there are birth control injections for dogs--I'm not sure how widely used and accepted they are.

BTW, in answer to a previous comment, no, the chances of mammary tumors and pyometra aren't 100% in unspayed dogs, but do they really need to be? I think that a 20 to 40% risk is quite high enough for me to decide to spay my own dog(s). (Bella has already been spayed.)

If this thread turns into an all-out food fight, please send the ceviche my way .

You do the tubal ligation as a stopgap measure to allow the hormones to course through particularly large breed dogs, then you do a full OVE,


They are no-where near 100%. A very large percentage under that Phil. And what if the chance of hemangiosarcomas was increased 50% for this breed if you spayed? The number one leading cause of death for certain breeds??? And that chance is one in five dogs get it????


A deadly cancer as opposed to MT even if the MT's are cancerous?


For the Yorkshire Terrier much is still needed to be known.
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