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06-17-2014, 05:04 PM | #211 | |
Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: USA
Posts: 7,652
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I knew that was your voice I was hearing!!!! lolololol
__________________ The Above advice/comments/reviews are my personal opinions based on my own experience/education/investigation and research and you can take them any way you want to......Or NOT!!! | |
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06-17-2014, 05:04 PM | #212 |
Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas
Posts: 27,448
| It does not matter to me where it is. That does not change the fact that it is not about education. What is really at the bottom of it, I can only surmise; but anyone who spends enough time reading the posts on this forum realizes that this is not the way to educate the majority of members and others who read this forum. I don't call this educational at all...once there is a concensus, perhaps it will be educational. There is no concensus and it is merely causing dissent. Very sad. The only ones hurt by things like this are the pups who depend on us.
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06-17-2014, 05:04 PM | #213 | |
Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: S. W. Suburbs of Chicago, IL
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__________________ “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” Mark Twain | |
06-17-2014, 09:56 PM | #214 | |
♥ Maximo and Teddy Donating Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 25,041
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I also do not believe information is for the few. This is why I said this subject challenges my core beliefs. I advocate spaying/neutering pets, but I do not believe in telling anyone to do anything without thinking. I dumped our first vet for treating me that way. At the same, I do not like the title of this thread, the "if ever." It suggests a position on the issue that Gail says she does not support for most pets.
__________________ Kristin, Max and Teddy | |
06-18-2014, 04:19 AM | #215 | |
Furbutts = LOVE Donating Member Moderator | Quote:
For any owner, I think it's quintessentially important to make INFORMED decisions - no matter what the mainstream is doing. We absolutely *should* understand what we're taking away from our pets when removing their organs, for petes sake! That's one reason this thread is informative and important and educational. It doesn't have to be a pro-spay-neuter/anti-spay-neuter thread unless people choose to make it that way and read into it that way.
__________________ ~ A friend told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn. ~ °¨¨¨°ºOº°¨¨¨° Ann | Pfeiffer | Marcel Verdel Purcell | Wylie | Artie °¨¨¨°ºOº°¨¨¨° | |
06-18-2014, 04:56 AM | #216 | ||
Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas
Posts: 27,448
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I also believe that one must consider the audience before attempting to educate. That is not being done....and this breed is already damaged by oopsies as I noted before. Until it is proven that spaying/neutering dogs at a certain age is more damaging that the benefits, I would certainly hope and pray that people would speak with their veterinarians. Some of the things posted online are merely scare tactics. I have been aware of this "movement" for some time and it bothers me greatly that it was begun by the breeding community that seeks to blame everyone but themselves for what has been done to certain breeds...that includes Golden Retrievers...cancers are not from spay/neuter I am so sure. I believe it is due to breeding. Proof? I don't have that...it is simply what I have derived from my vet and a few people who I know who have owned and/or rescued them. As for yorkies....to suggest that torn CCL's are due to anything but breeding is crazy imo. It is well known that most of those injuries are due to luxating patellas .. and those are considered genetic. Breeders know that, but they are not willing to take the blame for their messes. Instead they are going out of their way to suggest it is early spay/neuter.
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06-18-2014, 06:08 AM | #217 | |
♥ Maximo and Teddy Donating Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 25,041
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I also believe breeding/genetics is the primary source of health problems discussed in this thread (with environmental/human factors contributing, i.e. overfeeding and not exercising the pet) .
__________________ Kristin, Max and Teddy | |
06-18-2014, 06:12 AM | #218 |
♥ Maximo and Teddy Donating Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 25,041
| I do not mean 'agenda' in a negative way. It's human nature to have a motivation to do something, a goal, a need, and bias. Not even Einstein was a machine.
__________________ Kristin, Max and Teddy |
06-18-2014, 07:30 AM | #219 | |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Urbana, IL USA
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06-18-2014, 08:07 AM | #220 |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Urbana, IL USA
Posts: 3,648
| One more article for the road. I google scholared "health benefits of neutering dogs" and this is the first article that popped up. Please note that ANY scientific article on spaying and neutering in dogs is going to discuss the risks and benefits. They will not sugar-coat the truth to favor any agenda. It is not fair to ask people to censor what they have to say about spaying and neutering, especially when they are providing factual information. The overwhelming consensus is that spaying and neutering is beneficial for most dogs. That consensus is reached by weighing the pros and cons. Excerpts from the article below. To be clear which parts are the article, and which parts are my comments, I will put the quotes from the article in bold: Gonadectomy in Cats and Dogs: A Review of Risks and Benefits, by IM Reichler. Reprod Dom Anim 44 (Suppl. 2), 29–35 (2009); doi: 10.1111/j.1439-0531.2009.01437.x Contents The necessity, and in particular the timing, of gonadectomy in dogs and cats is still controversial. This is mainly because gonadectomy confers a mixture of benefits and adverse effects that depend upon the age at neutering, sex, species and breed. In this paper, the long-term risks and benefits of gonadectomy, at various ages, in dogs and cats are reviewed using data describing the effects of desexing on the urogenital tract and on other medical conditions, such as orthopaedic diseases, immune-mediated development and behaviour. Introduction Contraception through surgical sterilization or gonadectomy (GX) is usually an irreversible intervention that results in a permanent cessation of reproductive function. Surgical methods where the gonads are removed, are ovariectomy (OVE) or ovariohysterectomy (OVH), through the linea alba or via the flank or laparoscopy (Davidson et al. 2004; Devitt et al. 2005). In contrast to the removal of the gonads, sterilization by means of a vasectomy and salpingectomy also results in the elimination of reproductive function, but the sexual behaviour and the incidence of diseases caused by sexual hormones are not influenced. GX to Control Pet Overpopulation Until now, GX is the contraceptive technique of choice. As GX is irreversible, spay programmes are widely accepted for population control. In spite of worldwide efforts to reduce pet overpopulation, the number of unwanted dogs and cats is still increasing (New 2006). Researchers worldwide are searching for a single and simple contraceptive method that results in the permanent elimination of reproduction, but at signifi- cantly less cost than neutering. In male dogs, for instance, this can be achieved by the intratesticular injection of zinc gluconate (Levy et al. 2008). Spaying of female dogs and cats is still recommended to avoid high population densities, animal suffering and the spread of zoonoses. The castration of tomcats is also recommended, because castrated cats have on average better health and a reduced mortality rate than intact cats (Kalz 2001). The necessity, and in particular the timing, of GX in dogs and cats kept as pets is still controversial. This is mainly because GX confers a mixture of benefits and adverse affects depending on age at neutering, sex, species and breed and it has been proposed that ‘Any policy decision should consider the frequency and consequences of any condition’ (Spain 2006). [From here, the article goes on to discuss the effects of gonadectomy (neutering) on various parts of the body, pro and con. The parts considered are: Effect of Spaying on the Reproductive Tract, Effect of GX on the Development of Tumours of the Reproductive Tract, Sparing effect of spaying on the development of mammary tumours (MT), GX and survival rate after MT removal, Effect of spaying on tumours of the genital tract, Effect of spaying on external genitalia, Effects of Testicular Removal on the Genital Tract, Prostate cancer (PC), Effects of the timing of testicular removal on the genital tract, Effects of GX on the Lower Urinary Tract, Urinary incontinence (UI), Transitional cell carcinoma (TCC), Effect of GX on Metabolism, Body weight, Diabetes mellitus (DM), Hypothyroidism, Effects of GX on the Musculoskeletal System, Growth, Fractures, Canine hip dysplasia (CHD), Cranial cruciate ligament rupture (CCLR), Osteosarcoma, Effects of GX on Various Conditions, Cardiac tumours, and Life expectancy.] Since life expectancy is of the greatest concern to the average dog owner, I will quote that part in full, since it clearly states that life expectancy is increased by neutering: Life expectancy It is well documented that neutered animals live longer than intact animals (Kraft 1998; Greer et al. 2007). The increased life expectancy in gonadectomized animals may be due to the preventive effect on diseases of the reproductive tract and ⁄ or the reduced risk-associated behaviour. However, the increased life expectancy may also reflect to some extent the enhanced care of neutered animals by their owners. It is clear that surgical contraception offers both significant health and welfare benefits; however, the risks and adverse effects should always be considered in each animal and should be subject to careful debate with the animal’s owner. [end of article] |
06-18-2014, 09:53 AM | #221 | |
YT 2000 Club Donating Member | Quote:
Thanks Phil I did wonder about that. I also wonder how we can tell if any research paper/article has been peer reviewed. I also wonder how I could develop a program that will track which studies are being looked at when an article is written about spay/neuter. For example the above study could not have included the 250 Golden Retreiver study just released late last year/early this year nor the Viszla study from 2014.
__________________ Razzle and Dara. Our clan. RIP Karma Dec 24th 2004-July 14 2013 RIP Zoey Jun9 th 2008-May 12 2012. RIP Magic,Mar 26 2006July 1st 2018 | |
06-18-2014, 10:16 AM | #222 | |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Urbana, IL USA
Posts: 3,648
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The only sure way to figure out if an article has considered the research reported in a previous article is to look at the references section at the end of the article and see if the previous article is cited there. If you haven't used Google Scholar yet, give it a spin. You will be amazed at what you will find! | |
06-18-2014, 10:26 AM | #223 | |
YT 2000 Club Donating Member | Quote:
At this time in my mind a key question is the critical timing element. Six months is still an open question and Most especially for Males, and that is for the Yorkie breed. It is not an open question in my mind for medium to large breeds. Six months is way too early. I am and have never been anti spay.neuter. But I am for choosing the timing wisely. I am for keeping current with new and breaking research. An operation that is here in North America performed annually upon millions upon millions of dogs, needs to (and thank goodness the medical vet community and other interested parties have started to study the effects of same) is quite frankly necessary. In terms of education. This board is for adults. Those who by now with the multiple pages of posts who wish to inform themselves of the research can do so with the links provided. The decision on When to spay or neuter is one of the very important first decisions most pet owners or for that matter breeders must make. Another of course are vaccines and heartworm etc, not a topic for this thread.
__________________ Razzle and Dara. Our clan. RIP Karma Dec 24th 2004-July 14 2013 RIP Zoey Jun9 th 2008-May 12 2012. RIP Magic,Mar 26 2006July 1st 2018 | |
06-18-2014, 02:54 PM | #224 |
Action Jackson ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,814
| I am neither here nor there with the issue myself. I feel like that there are pretty much equal pros/cons on both sides and I personally will likely always have my pets fixed (at an appropriate age) because 1) I'm lazy and 2) dog balls , I think they're ugly. And I will likely always have males. But I likely won't until 10 months++. It keeps being mentioned that Gail has a motive or a bias, but I don't see how Ladyjane's position should be viewed upon differently, you obviously have a bias as well working in rescue. You see unfathomable things and very stupid dog owners. It's understandable that you would view this differently. But there's a whole 'nother world of dog ownership out there, i.e. dog sports for example. When you are raising/training an athlete, of sorts, there's lots of reasons you want to keep those hormones as well as delaying or never fixing. Go hang around an agility class for a while and you will see a ton of responsible owners who wish to keep their dog intact, and these are not your average joe schmo who are just going to let their dog get bred to any dog. This is not a black and white issue and I think we all need to remember and attempt to see the entire dog community from different perspectives.
__________________ ~ Brit & Lights! Camera! Jackson! CGC ETD TKP ~ Follow Jackson on Instagram: https://instagram.com/jacksontheterrier Last edited by Britster; 06-18-2014 at 02:56 PM. |
06-18-2014, 02:54 PM | #225 | |
Action Jackson ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,814
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__________________ ~ Brit & Lights! Camera! Jackson! CGC ETD TKP ~ Follow Jackson on Instagram: https://instagram.com/jacksontheterrier | |
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