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Old 06-17-2014, 05:04 PM   #211
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Lack of sleep its making everyone crazy wait I might have already been there

I knew that was your voice I was hearing!!!! lolololol
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Old 06-17-2014, 05:04 PM   #212
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It does not matter to me where it is. That does not change the fact that it is not about education. What is really at the bottom of it, I can only surmise; but anyone who spends enough time reading the posts on this forum realizes that this is not the way to educate the majority of members and others who read this forum. I don't call this educational at all...once there is a concensus, perhaps it will be educational. There is no concensus and it is merely causing dissent.
Very sad. The only ones hurt by things like this are the pups who depend on us.
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Old 06-17-2014, 05:04 PM   #213
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Well then that is their choice. But they will not do it willy nilly. And certainly not because there are dissenting opinions raised. After all that is the essence of democracy.

Research on this topic will continue to be posted as I find it. For all readers who are interested to read that research.
You, I and anyone else can post, discuss or challenge each others thought and opinions. We are not your children that need to be disciplined or schooled into your line of thinking. Post away but be prepared to be challenge in your conclusions and opinions that you draw from reading papers written by medical professional and try to draw your own conclusions by piecing together medical terminology beyond the layperon's capabilities.
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Old 06-17-2014, 09:56 PM   #214
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I agree with everything you say here. That's why I wish there were a science forum on Yorkietalk where we could dispassionately discuss the science behind these articles without fear of someone taking a single sentence out of context and reaching the conclusion that because there are *some* bad health effects of neutering, they therefore should not have their dog neutered. I agree that overall, the benefits of neutering far outweigh the drawbacks for all dogs except for breeding stock and perhaps a few sporting dogs who have extremely conscientious owners.
I do not believe science has ever been discussed dispassionately at any time in history. Part of the human condition. There is always an agenda.

I also do not believe information is for the few. This is why I said this subject challenges my core beliefs. I advocate spaying/neutering pets, but I do not believe in telling anyone to do anything without thinking. I dumped our first vet for treating me that way.

At the same, I do not like the title of this thread, the "if ever." It suggests a position on the issue that Gail says she does not support for most pets.
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Old 06-18-2014, 04:19 AM   #215
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I do not believe science has ever been discussed dispassionately at any time in history. Part of the human condition. There is always an agenda.

I also do not believe information is for the few. This is why I said this subject challenges my core beliefs. I advocate spaying/neutering pets, but I do not believe in telling anyone to do anything without thinking. I dumped our first vet for treating me that way.

At the same, I do not like the title of this thread, the "if ever." It suggests a position on the issue that Gail says she does not support for most pets.
This ^, the bolded parts.

For any owner, I think it's quintessentially important to make INFORMED decisions - no matter what the mainstream is doing. We absolutely *should* understand what we're taking away from our pets when removing their organs, for petes sake!

That's one reason this thread is informative and important and educational. It doesn't have to be a pro-spay-neuter/anti-spay-neuter thread unless people choose to make it that way and read into it that way.
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Old 06-18-2014, 04:56 AM   #216
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I do not believe science has ever been discussed dispassionately at any time in history. Part of the human condition. There is always an agenda.

I also do not believe information is for the few. This is why I said this subject challenges my core beliefs. I advocate spaying/neutering pets, but I do not believe in telling anyone to do anything without thinking. I dumped our first vet for treating me that way.

At the same, I do not like the title of this thread, the "if ever." It suggests a position on the issue that Gail says she does not support for most pets.
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Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom View Post
This ^, the bolded parts.

For any owner, I think it's quintessentially important to make INFORMED decisions - no matter what the mainstream is doing. We absolutely *should* understand what we're taking away from our pets when removing their organs, for petes sake!

That's one reason this thread is informative and important and educational. It doesn't have to be a pro-spay-neuter/anti-spay-neuter thread unless people choose to make it that way and read into it that way.
I don't believe this is about informing/educating yorkie owners. I believe it is anti spay/neuter. I agree that the "if ever" wording speaks volumes.

I also believe that one must consider the audience before attempting to educate. That is not being done....and this breed is already damaged by oopsies as I noted before. Until it is proven that spaying/neutering dogs at a certain age is more damaging that the benefits, I would certainly hope and pray that people would speak with their veterinarians. Some of the things posted online are merely scare tactics. I have been aware of this "movement" for some time and it bothers me greatly that it was begun by the breeding community that seeks to blame everyone but themselves for what has been done to certain breeds...that includes Golden Retrievers...cancers are not from spay/neuter I am so sure. I believe it is due to breeding. Proof? I don't have that...it is simply what I have derived from my vet and a few people who I know who have owned and/or rescued them.

As for yorkies....to suggest that torn CCL's are due to anything but breeding is crazy imo. It is well known that most of those injuries are due to luxating patellas .. and those are considered genetic. Breeders know that, but they are not willing to take the blame for their messes. Instead they are going out of their way to suggest it is early spay/neuter.
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Old 06-18-2014, 06:08 AM   #217
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I don't believe this is about informing/educating yorkie owners. I believe it is anti spay/neuter. I agree that the "if ever" wording speaks volumes.

I also believe that one must consider the audience before attempting to educate. That is not being done....and this breed is already damaged by oopsies as I noted before. Until it is proven that spaying/neutering dogs at a certain age is more damaging that the benefits, I would certainly hope and pray that people would speak with their veterinarians. Some of the things posted online are merely scare tactics. I have been aware of this "movement" for some time and it bothers me greatly that it was begun by the breeding community that seeks to blame everyone but themselves for what has been done to certain breeds...that includes Golden Retrievers...cancers are not from spay/neuter I am so sure. I believe it is due to breeding. Proof? I don't have that...it is simply what I have derived from my vet and a few people who I know who have owned and/or rescued them.

As for yorkies....to suggest that torn CCL's are due to anything but breeding is crazy imo. It is well known that most of those injuries are due to luxating patellas .. and those are considered genetic. Breeders know that, but they are not willing to take the blame for their messes. Instead they are going out of their way to suggest it is early spay/neuter.
I agree, the audience should be considered.

I also believe breeding/genetics is the primary source of health problems discussed in this thread (with environmental/human factors contributing, i.e. overfeeding and not exercising the pet) .
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Old 06-18-2014, 06:12 AM   #218
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I do not believe science has ever been discussed dispassionately at any time in history. Part of the human condition. There is always an agenda.
I do not mean 'agenda' in a negative way. It's human nature to have a motivation to do something, a goal, a need, and bias. Not even Einstein was a machine.
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Old 06-18-2014, 07:30 AM   #219
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This ^, the bolded parts.

For any owner, I think it's quintessentially important to make INFORMED decisions - no matter what the mainstream is doing. We absolutely *should* understand what we're taking away from our pets when removing their organs, for petes sake!

That's one reason this thread is informative and important and educational. It doesn't have to be a pro-spay-neuter/anti-spay-neuter thread unless people choose to make it that way and read into it that way.
This is not an anti-spay thread in the least. It exists to provide complete information about the effects of spaying, both good and bad. If ANYONE has a link to any article relevant to this topic that is behind a pay firewall and they can't access it, send me a private message with your email address and the link to the article in question and I will email you the PDF, and you can copy and paste the parts you think relevant to this thread. Just keep in mind the copyright laws and post only the parts you will be actively discussing--it's not a violation of copyright law to do that.
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Old 06-18-2014, 08:07 AM   #220
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One more article for the road. I google scholared "health benefits of neutering dogs" and this is the first article that popped up. Please note that ANY scientific article on spaying and neutering in dogs is going to discuss the risks and benefits. They will not sugar-coat the truth to favor any agenda. It is not fair to ask people to censor what they have to say about spaying and neutering, especially when they are providing factual information. The overwhelming consensus is that spaying and neutering is beneficial for most dogs. That consensus is reached by weighing the pros and cons. Excerpts from the article below. To be clear which parts are the article, and which parts are my comments, I will put the quotes from the article in bold:

Gonadectomy in Cats and Dogs: A Review of Risks and Benefits, by IM Reichler. Reprod Dom Anim 44 (Suppl. 2), 29–35 (2009); doi: 10.1111/j.1439-0531.2009.01437.x

Contents

The necessity, and in particular the timing, of gonadectomy in dogs and cats is still controversial. This is mainly because gonadectomy confers a mixture of benefits and adverse effects that depend upon the age at neutering, sex, species and breed. In this paper, the long-term risks and benefits of gonadectomy, at various ages, in dogs and cats are reviewed using data describing the effects of desexing on the urogenital tract and on other medical conditions, such as orthopaedic diseases, immune-mediated development and behaviour.

Introduction

Contraception through surgical sterilization or gonadectomy (GX) is usually an irreversible intervention that results in a permanent cessation of reproductive function. Surgical methods where the gonads are removed, are ovariectomy (OVE) or ovariohysterectomy (OVH), through the linea alba or via the flank or laparoscopy (Davidson et al. 2004; Devitt et al. 2005). In contrast to the removal of the gonads, sterilization by means of a vasectomy and salpingectomy also results in the elimination of reproductive function, but the sexual behaviour and the incidence of diseases caused by sexual hormones are not influenced.

GX to Control Pet Overpopulation

Until now, GX is the contraceptive technique of choice. As GX is irreversible, spay programmes are widely accepted for population control. In spite of worldwide efforts to reduce pet overpopulation, the number of unwanted dogs and cats is still increasing (New 2006). Researchers worldwide are searching for a single and simple contraceptive method that results in the permanent elimination of reproduction, but at signifi- cantly less cost than neutering. In male dogs, for instance, this can be achieved by the intratesticular injection of zinc gluconate (Levy et al. 2008). Spaying of female dogs and cats is still recommended to avoid high population densities, animal suffering and the spread of zoonoses. The castration of tomcats is also recommended, because castrated cats have on average better health and a reduced mortality rate than intact cats (Kalz 2001).

The necessity, and in particular the timing, of GX in dogs and cats kept as pets is still controversial. This is mainly because GX confers a mixture of benefits and adverse affects depending on age at neutering, sex, species and breed and it has been proposed that ‘Any policy decision should consider the frequency and consequences of any condition’ (Spain 2006).

[From here, the article goes on to discuss the effects of gonadectomy (neutering) on various parts of the body, pro and con. The parts considered are: Effect of Spaying on the Reproductive Tract, Effect of GX on the Development of Tumours of the Reproductive Tract, Sparing effect of spaying on the development of mammary tumours (MT), GX and survival rate after MT removal, Effect of spaying on tumours of the genital tract, Effect of spaying on external genitalia, Effects of Testicular Removal on the Genital Tract, Prostate cancer (PC), Effects of the timing of testicular removal on the genital tract, Effects of GX on the Lower Urinary Tract, Urinary incontinence (UI), Transitional cell carcinoma (TCC), Effect of GX on Metabolism, Body weight, Diabetes mellitus (DM), Hypothyroidism, Effects of GX on the Musculoskeletal System, Growth, Fractures, Canine hip dysplasia (CHD), Cranial cruciate ligament rupture (CCLR), Osteosarcoma, Effects of GX on Various Conditions, Cardiac tumours, and Life expectancy.]

Since life expectancy is of the greatest concern to the average dog owner, I will quote that part in full, since it clearly states that life expectancy is increased by neutering:

Life expectancy

It is well documented that neutered animals live longer than intact animals (Kraft 1998; Greer et al. 2007). The increased life expectancy in gonadectomized animals may be due to the preventive effect on diseases of the reproductive tract and ⁄ or the reduced risk-associated behaviour. However, the increased life expectancy may also reflect to some extent the enhanced care of neutered animals by their owners.

It is clear that surgical contraception offers both significant health and welfare benefits; however, the risks and adverse effects should always be considered in each animal and should be subject to careful debate with the animal’s owner.

[end of article]
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Old 06-18-2014, 09:53 AM   #221
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This is not an anti-spay thread in the least. It exists to provide complete information about the effects of spaying, both good and bad. If ANYONE has a link to any article relevant to this topic that is behind a pay firewall and they can't access it, send me a private message with your email address and the link to the article in question and I will email you the PDF, and you can copy and paste the parts you think relevant to this thread. Just keep in mind the copyright laws and post only the parts you wil
l be actively discussing--it's not a violation of copyright law to do that.


Thanks Phil I did wonder about that. I also wonder how we can tell if any research paper/article has been peer reviewed.

I also wonder how I could develop a program that will track which studies are being looked at when an article is written about spay/neuter. For example the above study could not have included the 250 Golden Retreiver study just released late last year/early this year nor the Viszla study from 2014.
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Old 06-18-2014, 10:16 AM   #222
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[/B]

Thanks Phil I did wonder about that. I also wonder how we can tell if any research paper/article has been peer reviewed.

I also wonder how I could develop a program that will track which studies are being looked at when an article is written about spay/neuter. For example the above study could not have included the 250 Golden Retreiver study just released late last year/early this year nor the Viszla study from 2014.
If you use Google Scholar as your search engine (scholar.google.com), all of the articles will either be peer reviewed, or they will be books or chapters from textbooks, or they will be patents that have been reviewed by the US Patent Office.

The only sure way to figure out if an article has considered the research reported in a previous article is to look at the references section at the end of the article and see if the previous article is cited there. If you haven't used Google Scholar yet, give it a spin. You will be amazed at what you will find!
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Old 06-18-2014, 10:26 AM   #223
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I do not believe science has ever been discussed dispassionately at any time in history. Part of the human condition. There is always an agenda.

I also do not believe information is for the few. This is why I said this subject challenges my core beliefs. I advocate spaying/neutering pets, but I do not believe in telling anyone to do anything without thinking. I dumped our first vet for treating me that way.

At the same, I do not like the title of this thread, the "if ever." It suggests a position on the issue that Gail says she does not support for most pets.
the if ever had a ? mark. And I meant that to suggest that much is not known especially by breed type of the long term health/benefit/risks equation. It means that I am open to being informed and educated, and am actively searching for that answer.

At this time in my mind a key question is the critical timing element. Six months is still an open question and Most especially for Males, and that is for the Yorkie breed. It is not an open question in my mind for medium to large breeds. Six months is way too early.

I am and have never been anti spay.neuter. But I am for choosing the timing wisely. I am for keeping current with new and breaking research.

An operation that is here in North America performed annually upon millions upon millions of dogs, needs to (and thank goodness the medical vet community and other interested parties have started to study the effects of same) is quite frankly necessary.

In terms of education. This board is for adults. Those who by now with the multiple pages of posts who wish to inform themselves of the research can do so with the links provided.

The decision on When to spay or neuter is one of the very important first decisions most pet owners or for that matter breeders must make. Another of course are vaccines and heartworm etc, not a topic for this thread.
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Old 06-18-2014, 02:54 PM   #224
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I am neither here nor there with the issue myself. I feel like that there are pretty much equal pros/cons on both sides and I personally will likely always have my pets fixed (at an appropriate age) because 1) I'm lazy and 2) dog balls , I think they're ugly. And I will likely always have males. But I likely won't until 10 months++.

It keeps being mentioned that Gail has a motive or a bias, but I don't see how Ladyjane's position should be viewed upon differently, you obviously have a bias as well working in rescue. You see unfathomable things and very stupid dog owners. It's understandable that you would view this differently. But there's a whole 'nother world of dog ownership out there, i.e. dog sports for example. When you are raising/training an athlete, of sorts, there's lots of reasons you want to keep those hormones as well as delaying or never fixing. Go hang around an agility class for a while and you will see a ton of responsible owners who wish to keep their dog intact, and these are not your average joe schmo who are just going to let their dog get bred to any dog. This is not a black and white issue and I think we all need to remember and attempt to see the entire dog community from different perspectives.
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Old 06-18-2014, 02:54 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom View Post
This ^, the bolded parts.

For any owner, I think it's quintessentially important to make INFORMED decisions - no matter what the mainstream is doing. We absolutely *should* understand what we're taking away from our pets when removing their organs, for petes sake!

That's one reason this thread is informative and important and educational. It doesn't have to be a pro-spay-neuter/anti-spay-neuter thread unless people choose to make it that way and read into it that way.
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