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Old 01-01-2011, 06:33 PM   #1
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Icon2 Reputable Breeding...Health Guarantee etc.

I am working on compiling some information and comparison regarding BYB vs. Puppy Mill vs. Reputable breeders, for the purpose of helping newbies get on the right foot toward finding their new perfect baby from a reputable breeder.

I am specifically looking for an article about Health Guarantees-
so if anybody has an article bookmarked with good info that relates to this subject matter, esp Health Guarantees please PM me.


This has been approved by YT Moderation for the Library as well as stickies in specific forums.
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Old 01-01-2011, 07:36 PM   #2
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Great idea!
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Old 01-01-2011, 07:41 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD View Post
I am working on compiling some information and comparison regarding BYB vs. Puppy Mill vs. Reputable breeders, for the purpose of helping newbies get on the right foot toward finding their new perfect baby from a reputable breeder.

I am specifically looking for an article about Health Guarantees-
so if anybody has an article bookmarked with good info that relates to this subject matter, esp Health Guarantees please PM me.


This has been approved by YT Moderation for the Library as well as stickies in specific forums.
This would be a good idea as long as there are sources sited and not based on anecdotal evidence or opinions. It's important all that hard work compiling actually amounts to something.
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Old 01-01-2011, 07:43 PM   #4
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This would be a good idea as long as there are sources sited and not based on anecdotal evidence or opinions. It's important all that hard work compiling actually amounts to something.
Oh yes- proper credit will be given to authors and sources cited.
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Old 01-01-2011, 07:46 PM   #5
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I think it is a great idea to have all this infomation in one place. This will be a great resource to offer to those who choose to reseach before they buy.
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Old 01-01-2011, 07:50 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by kjcmsw View Post
This would be a good idea as long as there are sources sited and not based on anecdotal evidence or opinions. It's important all that hard work compiling actually amounts to something.
I am pretty sure anecdotal evidence & opinions are ALL that will be available. Who would be keeping statistics and where would they possibly get them? Whenever we try to compare BYB vs. Puppy Mill vs. Reputable breeders, the problem comes into play that everyone thinks they are in that last category. So we will have to go with EDUCATED opinions.

This is a fantastic idea for a sticky! Newbies DO need to know what to look for. I think one nice place for Florida buyers to look is their own Puppy Lemon Law. It provides for a LOT more in a Health Guarantee than most of the breeders offer in their contracts. This always ticks me off a little as they SHOULD know what the law requires of them as breeders. So, if they are offering less and know it, then that would amount to trying to cheat their own buyers. Shame!

Here is the FL Puppy Lemon Law: http://www.forthevoiceless.org/Florida_lemon_law.html

I like how it offers the buyer 3 options: return puppy, get refund; return puppy, get replacement; and KEEP puppy & get $$$ for vet up to cost of puppy.

I do not like health guarantees that do not give the option of keeping the puppy, especially when you are talking the one year genetic guarantee. Can you imagine having a pup for a year and then trading him in for a replacement -- NO!
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Old 01-01-2011, 07:56 PM   #7
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I am pretty sure anecdotal evidence & opinions are ALL that will be available. Who would be keeping statistics and where would they possibly get them? Whenever we try to compare BYB vs. Puppy Mill vs. Reputable breeders, the problem comes into play that everyone thinks they are in that last category. So we will have to go with EDUCATED opinions.

This is a fantastic idea for a sticky! Newbies DO need to know what to look for. I think one nice place for Florida buyers to look is their own Puppy Lemon Law. It provides for a LOT more in a Health Guarantee than most of the breeders offer in their contracts. This always ticks me off a little as they SHOULD know what the law requires of them as breeders. So, if they are offering less and know it, then that would amount to trying to cheat their own buyers. Shame!

Here is the FL Puppy Lemon Law: http://www.forthevoiceless.org/Florida_lemon_law.html

I like how it offers the buyer 3 options: return puppy, get refund; return puppy, get replacement; and KEEP puppy & get $$$ for vet up to cost of puppy.

I do not like health guarantees that do not give the option of keeping the puppy, especially when you are talking the one year genetic guarantee. Can you imagine having a pup for a year and then trading him in for a replacement -- NO!
Thank you!
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Old 01-01-2011, 08:01 PM   #8
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I guarantee for 3 years for genetic health issues and not just life threatening and refund up to the purchase price except for LP unless it's a grade 4 up to one year of age and they can keep the pup or I'll refund and take the pup back buyer's option IF they choose to keep the pup with a health issue they have to guarantee they provide the best possible care for the pup and not just want the money back and choose to not take care of the dog. I also have to protect myself and the pup to make sure their well being is first and foremost! Great thread!

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Old 01-01-2011, 09:02 PM   #9
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I always thought this was a good article. It doesn't go into detail on the contract, but I do think it is very good.

Where can I get a Yorkie puppy and how do I find a good breeder?
Basically, breeders fit into six categories and like every business there are levels of desirability. The Well Known High Profile Professional, Well Known Professionals Who Exhibit and Advertise regularly, Dedicated fanciers, who do little advertising and are totally unconcerned about statistics, but regularly show up at Specialty Shows and who also regularly exhibit and finish dogs to their Championships generation after generation. Also there are the OK's, Not-So-Hots, and "I'll do or say anything to make a Dollar" breeders. It is important to stick with the first three groups and avoid the others.
First, it is important to distinguish between Professional Breeders and "back yard" breeders or so called "kitchen" breeders. The Professionals, be it hobby or commercial, make their living or part of their living by raising, showing and selling dogs. They usually have many years of study and experience in the art and science of creating the best qualities in the breed they are selling. The "kitchen" breeder or "back yard" breeder may breed their female once to show the kids how puppies are born, or may mate little "Fifi" with the dog down the street with no research or knowledge as to whether the animals or their pedigrees are compatible. They just "make puppies", and usually offer no replacement guarantee, etc.
Like the professional, the dedicated fancier also considers their reputation very important, has been in the same breed for ten years or more and is probably into their third generation of the breed. The fancier is not so much concerned about the price of the dog as they are about the "placement" of the dog, regardless of the price. However, make no mistake about it, dogs from the fancier will not be cheap either considering the high cost of veterinary care and consultation these days, as well as the high cost of quality food and other supplies. The fancier doesn't care about making a profit, but would like to meet the expenses of raising the dogs.
Although buying from a professional or fancier offers no guarantee of getting a quality puppy, as all living things mature differently, it typically is a lot safer than buying from an amateur whose experience is limited to breeding their own dog once or twice, like the "kitchen or back yard" breeders.
Finding a good breeder or fancier is probably as hard as finding a good anything. They are few and far between. However, since starting out with a well-bred dog will spare you more problems and save you more money than you know, it is always worth the time it takes to find one.
One rule of thumb is that the more a breeder seems to want to sell you a dog, the faster you should leave the premises. The best and most qualified breeders never "try" to sell any dog. They are too busy deciding if you are good owner material.
These people are in it for the long term and take their business, be it professional or hobby fancier, very seriously. They are not selling you a "product". They are letting you adopt someone they love. They will know each pup's name and the warm emotion in their voice as they describe each distinct personality will assure you that your future pal has been well taken care of, physically and emotionally.
Many breeders breed for show champions and have no interest in a dog unless they can add to the prestige and price of their breeding lines. They have been known to practically kick dogs out of their facilities, and have too many dogs for individual handling and attention; however, they may sell cheap just to "get rid" of their breeding excess. I strongly advise against buying a puppy or older dog from this kind of breeder because they are not really interested in YOU, either.
These people will try to wow you with a list of titles and awards a mile long. Their prices may tend to be higher than average if they want to prove to you that their dogs are something special, or really cheap if its something they hate and want to "get it out of there". If this latter breeder somehow feels like a "hype-job", believe it and move on.
Also, it is a good idea to remember that just because a dog is a show champion doesn't mean that he or she has the kind of temperament that fits in well with family life. Very often, these dogs have been neglected in household amenities, like paper training, or even abused by handlers who have no business being handlers and MIGHT BE temperamental nightmares.
The most important thing for a prospective owner to do is to learn everything they can about the breed they are interested in and then go out "shopping". The more Dog Shows you attend and Breeders you visit, the more you will appreciate the real thing when you find it. Also be honest with the Breeders about your intentions. Don't insist you only want a "pet" because you think that will be cheaper and then moan and complain later because you did not get a dog that you can "show and breed". AKC does offer the breeder an avenue of escape in the "limited" registration of the PURE BRED DOG. You can register this dog but no puppies from this dog can ever be registered with AKC unless the Breeder applies to AKC to reverse the "limited" registration when the dog reaches maturity.
Some basic things to look for as you visit Breeders are: that the pups and their surroundings are clean; how many puppies there are-- the more the merrier; at least one, but preferably both of the parents are on-site; there is a contract that spells out the breeder's liability and a guarantee on health and temperament; the price is competitive -- very expensive puppies are rarely worth it; don't rush it -- you are choosing a potential member of the family; trust your gut feelings. If it doesn't feel right, don't do it.
Don't take home a puppy under twelve weeks of age. Let the breeder get a couple of Immunization shots in that pup before you bring it home. Reputable breeders will be happy to take a deposit on a pup and keep it for you until twelve weeks. It will give your pup a better start. Don't meet your breeder at a local parking lot, restaurant, or other meeting place. Insist on seeing where your puppy lives. Remember that "one time" or so called "kitchen" pet breeders may not ever breed their dog again so your chances of getting your money back or a replacement puppy should something happen to your puppy are limited if you are dealing with this kind of breeder. Don't buy a puppy just to save it from a filthy life.. you're better off turning those people in and letting the authorities deal with them! The right dog and breeder for you is out there if you take the time to find them.
Alex's Yorkie Care Frequently Asked Questions. Page 2.
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Old 01-01-2011, 09:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD View Post
I am working on compiling some information and comparison regarding BYB vs. Puppy Mill vs. Reputable breeders, for the purpose of helping newbies get on the right foot toward finding their new perfect baby from a reputable breeder.

I am specifically looking for an article about Health Guarantees-
so if anybody has an article bookmarked with good info that relates to this subject matter, esp Health Guarantees please PM me.


This has been approved by YT Moderation for the Library as well as stickies in specific forums.
I have to ask is there an agree upon definition of each...?

BYB-?Are all hobby breeders BYB? Are BYB just pup mills in low in hime numbers run by one person...is a BYB just an inexperienced throw two dog sin the yard breeders?

PUPmills-hm pretty obvious I guess.

Responsible breeders-I think anyone whom test their dogs, practices responsible breeding methods-well it's a long list but I differ from many as I don't consider those who breed certain types of Yorkies irresponsible as other do...hence my asking for definitions here as to what is being considered...

So I'm not trying to create drama here but really asking...also is that off topic here? Am I not understanding your question maybe? Are you only making such a determination based on the health guarantee or in conjunction with some research and health guarantees...

"can you please rephrase the question"

I really hope no one but the OP answers this as not to disrupt the thread but just to clarify for me what the criteria for this research is...I didn't PM this since I was thinking maybe someone else is reading this and wondering the same thing so they may also want to see your response.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:20 PM   #11
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I have to ask is there an agree upon definition of each...?

BYB-?Are all hobby breeders BYB? Are BYB just pup mills in low in hime numbers run by one person...is a BYB just an inexperienced throw two dog sin the yard breeders?

PUPmills-hm pretty obvious I guess.

Responsible breeders-I think anyone whom test their dogs, practices responsible breeding methods-well it's a long list but I differ from many as I don't consider those who breed certain types of Yorkies irresponsible as other do...hence my asking for definitions here as to what is being considered...

So I'm not trying to create drama here but really asking...also is that off topic here? Am I not understanding your question maybe? Are you only making such a determination based on the health guarantee or in conjunction with some research and health guarantees...

"can you please rephrase the question"

I really hope no one but the OP answers this as not to disrupt the thread but just to clarify for me what the criteria for this research is...I didn't PM this since I was thinking maybe someone else is reading this and wondering the same thing so they may also want to see your response.
I'm not sure if I understand the question but I'm not providing anything I've written myself or really looking to make a concrete definition of any category of breeders; rather provide some information on the difference between breeding practices of reputable vs disreputable breeders to help those looking for a new baby find a good breeder. I know when I was a newbie I would've liked to have a "checklist" of red flags/green flags per se. I don't think any one article can be used as "law" but I think compiled together it covers well and helps to provide a general feeling for breeders who care. I'm sure not every single "point" is agreed by every single person and that's A-OK, but overall it should be a good guide. The "name" isn't what's important- providing some info to help someone in finding a good breeder is.

I have found lots of good info online; but I'd really like to also include something to help newbies know what a worthwhile health guarantee looks like, in addition to all the other information. Just one piece of a large puzzle.

A COMPARISON OF: Responsible Hobby Breeders and Backyard Breeders/Irresponsible Breeders
Read through one column, and read through the opposite. I think you can get a good feeling for how it goes.

My only intent is to help newbies get headed in the right direction knowing how to detect red flags, and avoiding the heartache of buying a sick puppy. Knowing what to look for, and what to avoid.

I hope I answered your questions.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD View Post
I'm not sure if I understand the question but I'm not providing anything I've written myself or really looking to make a concrete definition of any category of breeders; rather provide some information on the difference between breeding practices of reputable vs disreputable breeders to help those looking for a new baby find a good breeder. I know when I was a newbie I would've liked to have a "checklist" of red flags/green flags per se. I don't think any one article can be used as "law" but I think compiled together it covers well and helps to provide a general feeling for breeders who care. I'm sure not every single "point" is agreed by every single person and that's A-OK, but overall it should be a good guide. The "name" isn't what's important- providing some info to help someone in finding a good breeder is.

I have found lots of good info online; but I'd really like to also include something to help newbies know what a worthwhile health guarantee looks like, in addition to all the other information. Just one piece of a large puzzle.

A COMPARISON OF: Responsible Hobby Breeders and Backyard Breeders/Irresponsible Breeders
Read through one column, and read through the opposite. I think you can get a good feeling for how it goes.

My only intent is to help newbies get headed in the right direction knowing how to detect red flags, and avoiding the heartache of buying a sick puppy. Knowing what to look for, and what to avoid.

I hope I answered your questions.
Yes you did thanks for the clarification...I'm totally understanding now. I was like so confused with what I thought you were saying I was like on overload with the variables otherwise, and who and how determination...anyways doesn't matter I misunderstood! Thank you for the clarification!

A checklist for newbies (or those of us who learned the hard way) on what red flags may be and a bit about health guarantees...got it!

I'll throw this in now...I really wish the AKC had a basic health guarantee they made their registered breeders give out as the standard, not sure what it would be other than what they already ask but if it was all uniformed that would be nice...just putting it out there...so many buyer hear AKC and think that's all they need to know.

Don't they have a recommendation already though (on health contracts)?
I like their points here on what a breeder should have as basics, American Kennel Club - AKC Breeder

P.S. love the link you posted on...

Last edited by concretegurl; 01-01-2011 at 11:38 PM.
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