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Old 09-26-2010, 06:04 AM   #1
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Default Solomon is finally potty trained?/was my method mean?

Solomon has not had one accident in the house in 2 months. Solomon was born in Aug/09 I received Solomon from the breeder 26 Nov/09. The first 6months as I expected were trail and error. The next 6 months were hell, even with taking Solomon out 3 to 4 times a day plus every time I returned from an errand that never took over an hour or two he would still have random accidents (he didnt even try to hide, he would just poop/pee right in front of me). It had escalated to the point of me thinking about returning him to the breeder. So I decided that I wasnt being stern enough when he would have an accident, so I changed my strategy. After Solomon would have an accident I would scream in a VERY LOUD voice BAD DOG and swat him lightly on his behind and place him in his crate for an hour or longer, depending on how pissed I was) No toys/food/water/blanket. He would jus sit there and pout,sometimes he would pout for the entire hour but not once did I give in and let him out. Now my friends especially my female friends stated I was being mean, but I treat Solomon better than some people treat their two legged kids. He eats Premium dog food has a place to play and millions of toys and even goes to a friggin Dog Spa once a months that a female friend of mind suggested (that he actually loves). I have actually bonded with Solomon more in the last two months since the tension is no longer present. Again was my method mean or cruel?...oh Im David by the way.
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Old 09-26-2010, 06:12 AM   #2
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I don't think it was cruel. I would have water in the crate, but I'm sure is no big deal to not drink water for one hour. The most important thing is that it worked and he is potty trained now so that you both can have a happy life together. Cruel would be if you had given up and returned him to the breeder what would have been the easier route.

It also took me a while to learn how to potty train my pup and it only became 100% when I started to crate her, from now on I will crate any pup I may add to the family. In general don;t give too much credit cruelty business (if you know you are a good doggie's parent), everyone I know who doesn't have an animal companion thinks that the crates itself are cruel, which they are not. Staying in the crate for an hour is nothing, and is part of the training process.
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Old 09-26-2010, 06:20 AM   #3
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yeah the onyl thing i'd say is that you should have water available to him at all time... and now that you use his crate to punish him, he may associate it that way now and may not want to go in on his own free will now. but either way, it worked. congrats.
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Old 09-26-2010, 06:26 AM   #4
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Default Good point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazelzmibaybee View Post
yeah the onyl thing i'd say is that you should have water available to him at all time... and now that you use his crate to punish him, he may associate it that way now and may not want to go in on his own free will now. but either way, it worked. congrats.
I didn't think of that. You are right he may associate the crate with punishment...
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Old 09-26-2010, 06:29 AM   #5
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He still go's into his crate on his on free will and naps and plays with his toys....so far I havent seen his attitude change towards his crate.
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Old 09-26-2010, 07:24 AM   #6
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I would have to agree with your friends...hitting is never an appropriate response as it is usually done out of anger. By sending him to his crate when you are angry with no food or water you are taking the chance of creating issues you don't want such as him being afraid of his crate because you send him there when you are mad and he knows it's a punishment...having accidents but hiding them from you because he doesn't want to get hit and sent to his crate...with holding food can create food aggression issues or him gobbeling up his food when it is available and you should never with hold water.

A more appropriate response would be to tell him NO or Bad Dog in a stern voice, clap your hands to get his attention to make him stop and take him directly outside...once there tell him to 'go potty' or 'potty outside'.
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Old 09-26-2010, 08:36 AM   #7
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Whoa! What is this "withholding water is cruel"? ANY potty training guide will tell you to control your dog's access to food and water. Limiting their free access to the house is also a cornerstone of potty training. It would be WAY different if he left the dog in the crate for 10 hours w/no water... but an hour? Come on!

The only thing that's regrettable about this story is that it was motivated by extreme frustration. Would have been far better if he had been told much sooner to use the "How to Housebreak Your Dog in 7 Days" (Amazon.com: How to Housebreak Your Dog in 7 Days...Amazon.com: How to Housebreak Your Dog in 7 Days... ) method - which, BTW, includes lots of crate time.

I'm not a fan of yelling at my dogs... but I've been known to do it, when I've been pushed past my limit. Of course, I always have to think back and realize I should have intervened with the maddening behavior LONG before it got to the point of me losing my temper.
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Old 09-26-2010, 06:11 PM   #8
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Withholding water... I don't think that's cruel. Jackson has no access to water from bedtime-morning. And it's essential in potty training to know when your pup is eating or drinking.

However, your form of punishing IS borderline cruel. I would NEVER swat at my dog, ever. You may think he understands... but typically this method only makes dogs scared of you and more willing to HIDE where they are going and find places you will never find. I've also heard of dogs being afraid to potty in general because they associate the act of going potty with the yelling and swatting. Ignore the accidents. Dogs don't rationalize or think like humans... they have no idea what they have done wrong. Now, when I would CATCH Jackson in the act of pottying, I would simply say 'no' (firm but not mean) and bring him outside... but if he pottyed, and I didn't catch it while it was happening, you simply ignore it. They will have no idea what you are yelling for.

You also don't want to make the crate a bad place. My step-dad made this mistake with their dog and she ended up being terrible about getting in her crate... and would run, etc. It's supposed to be a positive place to go.
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Old 09-26-2010, 06:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Britster View Post
Withholding water... I don't think that's cruel. Jackson has no access to water from bedtime-morning. And it's essential in potty training to know when your pup is eating or drinking.

However, your form of punishing IS borderline cruel. I would NEVER swat at my dog, ever. You may think he understands... but typically this method only makes dogs scared of you and more willing to HIDE where they are going and find places you will never find. I've also heard of dogs being afraid to potty in general because they associate the act of going potty with the yelling and swatting. Ignore the accidents. Dogs don't rationalize or think like humans... they have no idea what they have done wrong. Now, when I would CATCH Jackson in the act of pottying, I would simply say 'no' (firm but not mean) and bring him outside... but if he pottyed, and I didn't catch it while it was happening, you simply ignore it. They will have no idea what you are yelling for.

You also don't want to make the crate a bad place. My step-dad made this mistake with their dog and she ended up being terrible about getting in her crate... and would run, etc. It's supposed to be a positive place to go.
I agree...Good post...took the words right out of my mouth
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Old 09-26-2010, 08:04 PM   #10
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I would never hit my dogs. End of story.
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Old 09-26-2010, 08:16 PM   #11
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The thing that's really hard to remember when you're in the thick of potty training is that your dog is not having accidents to spite you. This really hit home for me when I started giving Thor special treats for good potties. He would get super excited and hang around the treats, trying to figure out how to get some... and then he would mark my coffee table.

So I don't think it's fair to yell at your dog or strike him when he has no idea what's going on. Even rougher trainers like Cesar Milan don't yell or hit their dogs.

I hope that you can develop some more patience and focus on more positive methods in the future (which have been shown to be more effective longterm, btw).

As for witholding water - Victoria Stilwell of Animal Planet fame recommends putting down ice chips so dogs can get a little water if they need it. This might not work super well in hot climates, but it's something to consider.

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Old 09-26-2010, 08:40 PM   #12
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Was your method cruel? No. Did you make some mistakes? Yes

I'm happy you didn't return him to the breeder and tried to fix the problem you two were having. I still wouldn't call him housebroken yet. Two months with out an accident is nothing, hahaha. plus he may have had accidents, you just haven't found them yet. Also, withholding food and water for an hour isn't going to kill him, however it isn't going to prove anything either. he has no idea that the reason why there is no food/water/toys in his crate is because its part of a punishment. heck, he probably doesn't even notice those things are missing.

With your method, there are a few things I would change. First off, I would make sure your taking him out enough times and at the right times. First thing in the morning, 20-30 minutes after breakfast, late morning, mid afternoon, after dinner, evening, and right before bed. Dogs usually have to go to the bathroom after sleeping, eating, and playing, especially when they are puppies or haven't learned to completely control their bladder.

Second, If he does have an accident in the house in front of you use a stern voice and say no or bad dog and clap your hands to startle him out of the action. You don't want to scare him because then he'll just run away while peeing or pooping all over the place and that's just no fun for anybody. Once you startle him out of peeing/pooping, pick him up, carry him outside, and place him in the area you would like him to potty. After he finishes, praise the hell out of him. If he has an accident and you don't see him do it, just clean it up and move on. There is nothing you can do about it. If you don't get their attention within 5 seconds of them doing something then they are not going to know what you are yelling about. example: he pees on the floor while you are in another room then he goes off to play with a chew toy in his crate. You go in the room and step in the pee spot, which in turn ticks you off (nobody likes pee sock). So you go over to him and start yelling bad dog while your in that furious mood. You are yelling about the pee, but what he is getting is that you are yelling at him for being in his crate or playing with his toys which will create a bad association with those things.

Third, putting him in "time out" for an hour is excessive. After 5-10 minutes he is going to have no idea why he's still in there. If he does something wrong, and you think he needs a time out, you need to correct him immediately. remove him from the situation and put him in a quiet room or crate area and leave him be. Do not force him in the crate or put him in there with anger because he will sense it and make him afraid of the crate. After 5 minutes, or when he becomes quiet and relaxed, calmly let him out of the time out area and continue with what you were doing. don't make a bid deal about it.

Fourth, no more swatting his behind. These guys are tiny and what you make think is a light touch can actual be a hard touch to them. You can cause damage to their back, hips, and or knees. Hitting is wrong. Period.
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Old 09-26-2010, 08:50 PM   #13
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Quote:
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Was your method cruel? No. Did you make some mistakes? Yes

I'm happy you didn't return him to the breeder and tried to fix the problem you two were having. I still wouldn't call him housebroken yet. Two months with out an accident is nothing, hahaha. plus he may have had accidents, you just haven't found them yet. Also, withholding food and water for an hour isn't going to kill him, however it isn't going to prove anything either. he has no idea that the reason why there is no food/water/toys in his crate is because its part of a punishment. heck, he probably doesn't even notice those things are missing.

With your method, there are a few things I would change. First off, I would make sure your taking him out enough times and at the right times. First thing in the morning, 20-30 minutes after breakfast, late morning, mid afternoon, after dinner, evening, and right before bed. Dogs usually have to go to the bathroom after sleeping, eating, and playing, especially when they are puppies or haven't learned to completely control their bladder.

Second, If he does have an accident in the house in front of you use a stern voice and say no or bad dog and clap your hands to startle him out of the action. You don't want to scare him because then he'll just run away while peeing or pooping all over the place and that's just no fun for anybody. Once you startle him out of peeing/pooping, pick him up, carry him outside, and place him in the area you would like him to potty. After he finishes, praise the hell out of him. If he has an accident and you don't see him do it, just clean it up and move on. There is nothing you can do about it. If you don't get their attention within 5 seconds of them doing something then they are not going to know what you are yelling about. example: he pees on the floor while you are in another room then he goes off to play with a chew toy in his crate. You go in the room and step in the pee spot, which in turn ticks you off (nobody likes pee sock). So you go over to him and start yelling bad dog while your in that furious mood. You are yelling about the pee, but what he is getting is that you are yelling at him for being in his crate or playing with his toys which will create a bad association with those things.

Third, putting him in "time out" for an hour is excessive. After 5-10 minutes he is going to have no idea why he's still in there. If he does something wrong, and you think he needs a time out, you need to correct him immediately. remove him from the situation and put him in a quiet room or crate area and leave him be. Do not force him in the crate or put him in there with anger because he will sense it and make him afraid of the crate. After 5 minutes, or when he becomes quiet and relaxed, calmly let him out of the time out area and continue with what you were doing. don't make a bid deal about it.

Fourth, no more swatting his behind. These guys are tiny and what you make think is a light touch can actual be a hard touch to them. You can cause damage to their back, hips, and or knees. Hitting is wrong. Period.
I hope you will take into consideration all that you've read but, especially the "no swatting" part! That is definitely an act of cruelty and one born out of frustration...on your part.
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Old 09-26-2010, 08:59 PM   #14
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I would have to say that training a pup definitely requires patience and diligence. Yelling and hitting the dog does not do a thing for training. The dog does not understand what you are saying, it will ony associate it with punishment. While you say you got the result you wanted, I think you just got lucky.

The diligence part comes with you making sure that your part in potty training is consistent. You need to reinforce, positively the behaviour you are wanting from the pup. Taking him out at certain times to potty and looking for the signs of him/her needing to potty. I remember as soon as I saw either of mine cirlce or sniffing, onto the pad or out the door they went and once they did, they got praise and a treat. This method may have taken longer but for me it was much gentler and kinder.
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Old 09-26-2010, 09:06 PM   #15
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Also wanted to add:

while mine are 3 and 2 1/2 and are quite well potty trained to pads and going outside, Hot Rod will use the front door rug when he is off schedule and has not felt well which is seldom but has happened. Usually he's right on in the morning and then at his evening walk.

Good luck and just be prepared for the occasional accident and hopefully the patience will take over.
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