Question for Breeders.

[DvlshAngel985]

This link was posted in a different thread for the article on the bottom. I started watching the video on top and it got me thinking...
PetsByPets

I was only able to watch the first few minutes of the video because I have to go tutor a kid (my part time job). Anyway, the feeling I got from it was by breeding, or purchasing into pure bred dogs, we're breeding these dogs to death. Purebred dogs are bred with a limited gene pool which is essentially killing them.

It is my understanding that responsible, ethical breeders do testing on their breeders to help prevent these kinds of effects. Could it be that those that made this video just looked into severe cases, or pups that resulted from puppy mills and BYB? (I say puppy mills and BYB because I know they don't care which two dogs they put together as long as it results in puppies)
I would also like to know what breeders do in cases that result in something as severe as was pictured in that video. What do you do when a dog is in that much discomfort? What would you recommend a pup parent to do?

[yorkielady06]

I am afraid to answer this one so I will respectfully dodge the bullet on most of what you asked. I will however state that if, like that poor cavalier king charles spaniel, my own baby suffered like that and had that much pain, I would kindly put her to sleep. That would be the only humane thing to do in that case.
Have you watched the entire video? Your answers will be in the video.

[Nancy1999]

I'm no breeder and can't answer your questions, but I have a few comments about the video. The video is so sad, and this is happening among so many breeds, I read a similar article almost 30 years ago, and stopped buying purebreds because of it. A few years ago, when I decided to get another dog, I learned that not all purebred breeders are breeding as a business, and some truly love their chosen breed and really do want to do right by it. The video shows a King Cavalier that has been bred so poorly that their brains are too big for their skull. This is what happens when we are breeding without thinking toward the future, or when there is not a good breed club looking out for the best interests of the dog.

When man steps in and starts breeding, it's no longer survival of the fittest; dogs that in the wild would have no chance of survival, live and breed with human help. I disagree that it's just the breeders who show who cause the problems; the problem is caused because there was not a good mother club to protect the breed, and the standard in so many breed clubs has changed too rapidly. It's so important to have a mother club that looks after the breed, and doesn't change the standard because of popular public whims. Function must always come before some whim on physical appearance. We should not judge a dog based solely on some obscure view of beauty, and standard should change very slowly, until we are sure a change in physical appearance doesn't result in lost of function. The German Shepard is an example of a dog that has lost its structure because the mother club lost its way. The Pug, Bulldog, and Pekinese they showed are other examples, of dogs that have been bred without thinking towards the future. Breed clubs have to listen to new evidence that shows that that their written standard is unhealthy for the breed.

The YTCA is the mother club of the Yorkshire terrier, and it tries to protect the breed from the hottest new trends. For example, super tinies, rare colors, apple heads and flat button noses, are popular trends that the mother club refuses to accept. However, breeders of these trends try to convince buyers that breeders who show are the problem, and their dogs are perfectly healthy, and the mother club is too slow to accept changes. Another part of the problem I see with the yorkie is the immense popularity of the breed, and the fact that many breeders are just breeding to fill the public demand for pets. This is where much of the genetic weaknesses can be spread over and over. Poor breeders sell with open registration, to people who know nothing about breeding and will breed and sell puppies before they even know if they have a healthy dog.

I encourage everyone to only support good breeders who understand the importance of breeding to a healthy standard, and are not breeding for profit. Only support those who study the breed and understand its weaknesses and genetic faults. There are so many pets available, and if that's what you want, I encourage you to support rescue and shelters, but if you want to support the Yorkshire Terrier breed, find the best breeder you can, and become a "patron of the arts." You are not buying a dog, you are showing support for a great breeder.

[DvlshAngel985]

couldn't, had to go to work. But I will watch it now. I just think it's sad that in their intro they say we are killing these dogs to fulfill our desires for purebreds.

[RachelandSadie]

why on God's green earth are we video taping dogs in that much pain and not putting them to sleep so they don't suffer further??? i don't have much to say on the video's information and attempt at facts, i'm just shocked at the images of poor little dogs in so much pain and everyone is just standing there taping it and watching them suffer that way...awful!!

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I'm no breeder and can't answer your questions, but I have a few comments about the video. The video is so sad, and this is happening among so many breeds, I read a similar article almost 30 years ago, and stopped buying purebreds because of it. A few years ago, when I decided to get another dog, I learned that not all purebred breeders are breeding as a business, and some truly love their chosen breed and really do want to do right by it. The video shows a King Cavalier that has been bred so poorly that their brains are too big for their skull. This is what happens when we are breeding without thinking toward the future, or when there is not a good breed club looking out for the best interests of the dog.

When man steps in and starts breeding, it's no longer survival of the fittest; dogs that in the wild would have no chance of survival, live and breed with human help. I disagree that it's just the breeders who show who cause the problems; the problem is caused because there was not a good mother club to protect the breed, and the standard in so many breed clubs has changed too rapidly. It's so important to have a mother club that looks after the breed, and doesn't change the standard because of popular public whims. Function must always come before some whim on physical appearance. We should not judge a dog based solely on some obscure view of beauty, and standard should change very slowly, until we are sure a change in physical appearance doesn't result in lost of function. The German Shepard is an example of a dog that has lost its structure because the mother club lost its way. The Pug, Bulldog, and Pekinese they showed are other examples, of dogs that have been bred without thinking towards the future. Breed clubs have to listen to new evidence that shows that that their written standard is unhealthy for the breed.

The YTCA is the mother club of the Yorkshire terrier, and it tries to protect the breed from the hottest new trends. For example, super tinies, rare colors, apple heads and flat button noses, are popular trends that the mother club refuses to accept. However, breeders of these trends try to convince buyers that breeders who show are the problem, and their dogs are perfectly healthy, and the mother club is too slow to accept changes. Another part of the problem I see with the yorkie is the immense popularity of the breed, and the fact that many breeders are just breeding to fill the public demand for pets. This is where much of the genetic weaknesses can be spread over and over. Poor breeders sell with open registration, to people who know nothing about breeding and will breed and sell puppies before they even know if they have a healthy dog.

I encourage everyone to only support good breeders who understand the importance of breeding to a healthy standard, and are not breeding for profit. Only support those who study the breed and understand its weaknesses and genetic faults. There are so many pets available, and if that's what you want, I encourage you to support rescue and shelters, but if you want to support the Yorkshire Terrier breed, find the best breeder you can, and become a "patron of the arts." You are not buying a dog, you are showing support for a great breeder.

I so enjoy reading your posts Nancy. Your comments always make me think. For example, you mentioned the pug, that made my mind go back to a "Dogs 101" show I saw on pugs and bulldogs and other brachycephalic dogs. It's a look that is causing dogs to have breathing problems, as well as not being able to reproduce naturally. (people have to step in to inseminate the females, and then they require a c-section to birth the babies) At the moment I thought, "that's a lot of work, and a bit of suffering just to have dogs with smushed in faces." But after reading your comments, I don't think I could support that breed without having it weigh on my conscience. They're fantastic dogs, but I don't think it's fair that we humans changed them so much just for our simple pleasure.

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by RachelandSadie

why on God's green earth are we video taping dogs in that much pain and not putting them to sleep so they don't suffer further??? i don't have much to say on the video's information and attempt at facts, i'm just shocked at the images of poor little dogs in so much pain and everyone is just standing there taping it and watching them suffer that way...awful!!

I took it as an owners footage of his/her dog to go show a vet. Kinda like when you are having car trouble, and you finally take it to the mechanic and they can't determine what's wrong because your car is fine. I took it as that. The dog was having a reaction and the owner caught it to later show the vet. (e-mail it to them maybe?)
I know horrible analogy, but it's the only thing I could think of at the moment.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

I so enjoy reading your posts Nancy. Your comments always make me think. For example, you mentioned the pug, that made my mind go back to a "Dogs 101" show I saw on pugs and bulldogs and other brachycephalic dogs. It's a look that is causing dogs to have breathing problems, as well as not being able to reproduce naturally. (people have to step in to inseminate the females, and then they require a c-section to birth the babies) At the moment I thought, "that's a lot of work, and a bit of suffering just to have dogs with smushed in faces." But after reading your comments, I don't think I could support that breed without having it weigh on my conscience. They're fantastic dogs, but I don't think it's fair that we humans changed them so much just for our simple pleasure.

Yeah, I agree with you, and I've loved the German Shepard breed for years, and can't believe what they've done to it. The dog who won could barely walk. According to all the "before" pictures, I liked the way the dogs looked like better before, they just seemed so much more fit. Much of the yorkie standard does involve structure, and structure is so important to the health of the dog, and the way it moves. The yorkie is such a beautiful dog that many people believe they are breeding for just looks, but this is not true. A good breeder could explain this better.

[Jennxling]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

This link was posted in a different thread for the article on the bottom. I started watching the video on top and it got me thinking...
PetsByPets

I was only able to watch the first few minutes of the video because I have to go tutor a kid (my part time job). Anyway, the feeling I got from it was by breeding, or purchasing into pure bred dogs, we're breeding these dogs to death. Purebred dogs are bred with a limited gene pool which is essentially killing them.

It is my understanding that responsible, ethical breeders do testing on their breeders to help prevent these kinds of effects. Could it be that those that made this video just looked into severe cases, or pups that resulted from puppy mills and BYB? (I say puppy mills and BYB because I know they don't care which two dogs they put together as long as it results in puppies)
I would also like to know what breeders do in cases that result in something as severe as was pictured in that video. What do you do when a dog is in that much discomfort? What would you recommend a pup parent to do?

The video (in its later portions) states that the problem with pedigree problem is due to show competition as they value beauty over health. In addition, it is also the Kennel standards, which have some standards that are not the best for the breed. Therefore, the health problems in pedigree dog are not always resulted from BYB as many reputable breeders specifically breed for competition and the "standard" of the breed emphasized by kennel clubs. However, reputable breeders do perform health tests, which prevents an unhealthy dog from passing its genetics. This documentary saddens me

[yorkielady06]

But as with all purebred dogs there is alot of line breeding...breeding family members to family members...as the video states and the genetic people...problems are coming about in all breeds even here in the USA with our own AKC dogs. There are many breeders who will breed grandfather to granddaughter and so on. And the standards of all breeds have changed over the years no matter what breed there is.
I just looked at the YTCA and the dogs within that site. The beginning with the different terriers and types. Even with in one part..the size standards. In a little more than a hundred years we have shrunk the Yorkshire Terriers down to almost half their size. The Yorkshire standard of 1890 says"
"Weight divided into two classes, under five pounds and over five pounds, but not to exceed twelve pounds." 12 pounds!!! and now we say up to 7 pounds. I also noted that the coats on these dogs have changed quite a bit and the length of the body and legs. If you look at the earlier ones the length of the dog from the neck to the tail is much shorter now and the legs are shorter too.
Yorkies are one of the top breeds with liver shunt disease. They are plagued with digestive issues and with luxating patellas. There are quite a number with hydrocephalus and legg perthes. All these issues cannot all be blamed on the BYB and puppy mills and breeders not breeding to standard. There are too many instances of these problems and it is only getting worse. As I read the standards of the breed I noticed that there is not one mention of the health of the dog...interesting.

[yorkielady06]

I will correct myself here. I read the Code of Ethics and it does state"All stud dogs and bitches shall be screened prior to breeding for both infectious and hereditary diseases using the currently accepted and available techniques." So not quite in the Standard.
So how does the YTCA make sure that these breeders do this? Is there a governing body to ensure the dogs are healthy and free from hereditary diseases?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by yorkielady06

But as with all purebred dogs there is alot of line breeding...breeding family members to family members...as the video states and the genetic people...problems are coming about in all breeds even here in the USA with our own AKC dogs. There are many breeders who will breed grandfather to granddaughter and so on. And the standards of all breeds have changed over the years no matter what breed there is.
I just looked at the YTCA and the dogs within that site. The beginning with the different terriers and types. Even with in one part..the size standards. In a little more than a hundred years we have shrunk the Yorkshire Terriers down to almost half their size. The Yorkshire standard of 1890 says"
"Weight divided into two classes, under five pounds and over five pounds, but not to exceed twelve pounds." 12 pounds!!! and now we say up to 7 pounds. I also noted that the coats on these dogs have changed quite a bit and the length of the body and legs. If you look at the earlier ones the length of the dog from the neck to the tail is much shorter now and the legs are shorter too.
Yorkies are one of the top breeds with liver shunt disease. They are plagued with digestive issues and with luxating patellas. There are quite a number with hydrocephalus and legg perthes. All these issues cannot all be blamed on the BYB and puppy mills and breeders not breeding to standard. There are too many instances of these problems and it is only getting worse. As I read the standards of the breed I noticed that there is not one mention of the health of the dog...interesting.

You are correct that yorkies are plaqued with genetic illnesses, but is the illness related to standard? For example, in other breeds the illness is directly related to the standard because standard may call for a flat nose, and the flat nose causes breathing problems. I do think the incident of Liver Shunts and Luxating Patellas can be blamed on the breeders who breed a dog before she even knows the health of her own dog, a good breeder tests, and knows her line, and also will not be selling puppies willy nilly for breeding. I agree with you about the incidence of inbreeding and only a really experienced breeder who has studied genetics should attempt this. I think in the wild there is probably a lot more inbreeding then we realize, it's just that nature "culls" the young that are unhealthy. Regarding size, I do think the mother club does it's best to encourage breeders not to breed below 5 pounds. We shouldn't be breeding a dog that needs human help in delivering it's pups. Backyard breeders, and commercial breeders, not breeders who show, produce the vast majority of yorkies. If you really believe that the written standard is the reason yorkies are unhealthy, I don't think you should buy a yorkie, and please don't just support a breeder who doesn't breed to standard. Regarding "there is not one mention of the health of the dog" written in the standard, remember, much of "structure" relates to health.

[yorkielady06]

I will have to disagree on a point or 2. Illnesses or diseases may be related to the standard but not always. Is the brain issue with the Cavalier due to standards?
And if, as you stated, the breeders that bred willy nilly are to blame for all the diseases then how are the show breeders dogs coming up with the same problems? I can not picture a show person buying a pup from a puppy mill or BYB. And where did the BYB and puppy mills get their dogs from?
I was not saying that I believe that the standard of the Yorkie is the problem. What I am saying is, that like in the video, line breeding should not be allowed and the health of a purebred should be within the standards of the governing body. A show dog should be screened prior to ever entering an arena. That dog should not only be pretty to the eyes, he should be in perfect health. A dog may have perfect "structure" and still have a BAT off the charts.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by yorkielady06

I will have to disagree on a point or 2. Illnesses or diseases may be related to the standard but not always. Is the brain issue with the Cavalier due to standards?
And if, as you stated, the breeders that bred willy nilly are to blame for all the diseases then how are the show breeders dogs coming up with the same problems? I can not picture a show person buying a pup from a puppy mill or BYB. And where did the BYB and puppy mills get their dogs from?
I was not saying that I believe that the standard of the Yorkie is the problem. What I am saying is, that like in the video, line breeding should not be allowed and the health of a purebred should be within the standards of the governing body. A show dog should be screened prior to ever entering an arena. That dog should not only be pretty to the eyes, he should be in perfect health. A dog may have perfect "structure" and still have a BAT off the charts.

I'm not sure, but I believe it is, weren't they breeding for smaller heads? The skull is now too small for the brain. This happens with yorkies concerning teeth, on dogs under 4 pounds, the jaw is sometimes too small for the teeth.

The problems are a breed wide problem, but a reputable breeder will not repeat the pairing that caused the problem or may even neuter the dogs involved. A backyard breeder probably doesn't even know if one of her pups has a problem and that dog's offspring is probably already producing pups, so it just goes on and on. Lol, I can't picture a show breeder buying from a byb or puppy mill either, but I think many will tell you that they have been burnt in the past as well.

I think the video was an informative one, but I don't think we should take it as gospel. For you to decide that line breeding should be prohibited because of this video may be rushing the gun a little. We really don't know much of the real science behind it. They had one person that was an expert on genetics, and I'm not sure he said that line breeding should be prohibited. Remember when producing a show, they don't always get the full side of the picture. However, the video did point out that certain breeds have very real problems due to the way their standard is written and the breed clubs are not open to addressing these things. I do agree with you that dogs with a known genetic issue should not be judged or bred. I don't know exactly the best way to go about it, remember that a dog can have a perfect BAT score and still have liver shunt. So we could have a rule that the BAT score must be within this range, the dog could have liver shunt and the breeder could know about it. However, it would be unethical for the breeder to still show the dog, and that's where ethics become more important than all the rules. We are on the same page as far as health, I want to be clear with that, I just don't know the best way to go about it. I do know that a breeder who is breeding for money is more likely to breed unhealthy dogs, and I also know that there are some breeders who have high ethics, and would neuter a champion, if it were found to be passing a hereditary illness.

[livingdustmops]

Teri Shumsky was attacked for trying to bring Liver Shunt out of the closet. I am sure there are YTCA members on here that can address what really happened..I read about this while she was still alive and how other show breeders attacked her and then how political it became after she passed.


2003picnic

Welcome
to the 2003
4th Annual Texas Roving Picnic
Photo Page
Sit back and enjoy all the fun and laughter and tears that went on this year...It was a wonderful even...It exceeded all expectations we had...Our grattitude and heartfelt thanks go out to all the donors for this years event...
i am so thrilled to say we will be writing Terri Shumsky's Fanny Mae Fund a check for a whopping $4000.00 from this years proceeds...
Terri...You I admire most graciously my friend...and yes I am so proud to call you my friend...You have done more for Yorkies than anyone I know and taken more abuse and unwarranted attacks than any one person should ever have to endure and you just keep on keeping on GF...I bow to you and I have never bowed to any man or woman in my life...May God Bless you and keep you in his loving hands forever...


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