Crisis! How do I help her

[Jaya and Jenna]

Since Jenna has transformed into an angel (overnight almost), it seems that Jaya cannot handle the competition... its like she doesnt want her position of top-good-girl to be usurped by her sister - who`s always been the `naughty one`

This is the very first time Jaya has shown jealousy towards Jenna, and its getting out of hand.

If Jenna comes towards me, Jaya immediately starts growling and biting at Jenna and actually drags her away from me. If I hold Jenna she barks and barks. Sometimes the bark comes out in a squeak and pain is written all over her face.

I give Jaya the same amount of attention - but she can`t handle us giving Jenna any praise.......Jaya is the alpha - nobody is challenging that... Jenna certainly isnt.....so

What do I do........ its getting out of hand and she`s really being mean to poor Jenna..... I mean its getting to the point that Jenna comes running for us and shuffles behind our legs to get away from Jaya... What do I do......????????

[cesar49]

Originally Posted by Jaya and Jenna

Since Jenna has transformed into an angel (overnight almost), it seems that Jaya cannot handle the competition... its like she doesnt want her position of top-good-girl to be usurped by her sister - who`s always been the `naughty one`

This is the very first time Jaya has shown jealousy towards Jenna, and its getting out of hand.

If Jenna comes towards me, Jaya immediately starts growling and biting at Jenna and actually drags her away from me. If I hold Jenna she barks and barks. Sometimes the bark comes out in a squeak and pain is written all over her face.

I give Jaya the same amount of attention - but she can`t handle us giving Jenna any praise.......Jaya is the alpha - nobody is challenging that... Jenna certainly isnt.....so

What do I do........ its getting out of hand and she`s really being mean to poor Jenna..... I mean its getting to the point that Jenna comes running for us and shuffles behind our legs to get away from Jaya... What do I do......????????

i think you need to take control and be the leader...dont let your dog lead you.. maybe crate him when he is mean. sounds like jealousy.. needs a time out.. good luck

[Jaya and Jenna]

Originally Posted by cesar49

i think you need to take control and be the leader...dont let your dog lead you.. maybe crate him when he is mean. sounds like jealousy.. needs a time out.. good luck

i hadn`t thought to punish her for being mean - i just simply told her `no`. But that hasnt worked... she stops at that moment, but starts up soon after

Time-out seems like a logical action... i will have to try it. She needs to realize that her behaviour is wrong

(awwwwwwwwwww i HATE punishing Jaya cuz she`s so good always... she tries so hard to please.... this is going to be tough)

[donnarod]

Tricksie barks and does that painful screeming when my husband hugs me.
If I had to crate her when for different reasons, I wouldn't do it as punishment, maybe put her in a room alone for awhile. Some people say that they talk in a sad tone, like, "poor baby, look what you did to her", Good Luck, I am not a good punisher.

[cesar49]

Originally Posted by Jaya and Jenna

i hadn`t thought to punish her for being mean - i just simply told her `no`. But that hasnt worked... she stops at that moment, but starts up soon after

Time-out seems like a logical action... i will have to try it. She needs to realize that her behaviour is wrong

(awwwwwwwwwww i HATE punishing Jaya cuz she`s so good always... she tries so hard to please.... this is going to be tough)

do not give her affection at the wrong time.. like after she does something wrong.. putting her on her side and holding her there will help her see that you are the dominant one..

[alaskayorkie]

This is one of the most frustrating areas of dog ownership, IMO. We want our dogs to get along as we'd expect our children to get along, but the canine world doesn't always work that way. It's risky giving advice because, unless we're accredited behaviorists, it's hard to know all that's going on in your pack. It's science. I have no doubt people will take exception to my advice because we're talking psychology and I'm not a psychologist.

I'll tell you what I've read, and what I've done, and you can take the advice or leave it.

* When to intervene: If the dogs are not physically hurting each other, cuts, red marks, etc., experts often recommend that you let them work it out on their own. Often, owners intervene and we falsely elevate the status of a lower dog in the pack. That makes the leader jealous, and he or she takes it out on the other dog. The other dog, meanwhile, doesn't want that status. They'd just as soon give it up to the leader. But when you show any favoritism at all to the non-alpha, you're creating the problem. By favoritism, I mean first through the door (after you), best spot on your lap, first to get supper, etc.)
* If there are injuries: I had a different situation. My 2-year-old turned into super-alpha the moment we got our 10-year-old, frail rescue. The 2-year-old would administer occasional beatings that would risk serious injuries. I lucked out and ran into a licensed behaviorist online. She had me send her a detailed report of all the confrontations, then she sent me back a multi-page report on how to address it. Here's what she had me do in a nutshell:
* Make sure they were all getting plenty of exercise. A tired dog is a happy dog.
* Since my alpha was toy aggressive, she had me take control of all toys in the house. Don't leave any lying around. (Your situation sounds different. It sounds like your alpha is possessive of your attention.)
* When it was toy time, she had me leash my aggressor and supervise the play. I gave my alpha the best toy and gave my non-alpha a low-value toy. It took weeks, but I finally got to the point that both dogs could play with their own toys without any beatings.
* I followed that routine for at least a month and was happy with the results. We'll occasionally have setbacks, but then I go back to the beginning.

I'd encourage you to read up more, though, and see if you can find examples on the 'net that are more like the kinds of problems you're having.

P.S. If the "Cesar" who gave you advice above is actually Cesar Milan, disregard everything I've said. :P

[cesar49]

no im not cesar milan, lol but i love his advice.. i have his books on audio cd...highly recommend them..

[alaskayorkie]

Originally Posted by cesar49

no im not cesar milan, lol but i love his advice.. i have his books on audio cd...highly recommend them..

Well, you obviously know what you're talking about, so I doubly qualify my advice above. I just wanted to pass on my observations for the sake of discussion.

[edumma]

I agree with alaskayorkie. You have to establish yourself as the alfa of the pack. Jaya has clearly established that she is a higher statis than jenna but you have to show that you are a higher statis than jaya , that means you control everything ( food ,toys , playtime etc.) On the down side of this you will also have to treat jenna as a low ranking member of the pack , but dont stress over this as jenna will accept this. She will be under less stress also because jaya will not be putting her in her place all the time.The key to all this is to be a strong pack leader so that jaya doesnt think she has to keep the pack in order , she will look to you to do this.
Eileen

[Jaya and Jenna]

Originally Posted by alaskayorkie

This is one of the most frustrating areas of dog ownership, IMO. We want our dogs to get along as we'd expect our children to get along, but the canine world doesn't always work that way. It's risky giving advice because, unless we're accredited behaviorists, it's hard to know all that's going on in your pack. It's science. I have no doubt people will take exception to my advice because we're talking psychology and I'm not a psychologist.

I'll tell you what I've read, and what I've done, and you can take the advice or leave it.

* When to intervene: If the dogs are not physically hurting each other, cuts, red marks, etc., experts often recommend that you let them work it out on their own. Often, owners intervene and we falsely elevate the status of a lower dog in the pack. That makes the leader jealous, and he or she takes it out on the other dog. The other dog, meanwhile, doesn't want that status. They'd just as soon give it up to the leader. But when you show any favoritism at all to the non-alpha, you're creating the problem. By favoritism, I mean first through the door (after you), best spot on your lap, first to get supper, etc.)
* If there are injuries: I had a different situation. My 2-year-old turned into super-alpha the moment we got our 10-year-old, frail rescue. The 2-year-old would administer occasional beatings that would risk serious injuries. I lucked out and ran into a licensed behaviorist online. She had me send her a detailed report of all the confrontations, then she sent me back a multi-page report on how to address it. Here's what she had me do in a nutshell:
* Make sure they were all getting plenty of exercise. A tired dog is a happy dog.
* Since my alpha was toy aggressive, she had me take control of all toys in the house. Don't leave any lying around. (Your situation sounds different. It sounds like your alpha is possessive of your attention.)
* When it was toy time, she had me leash my aggressor and supervise the play. I gave my alpha the best toy and gave my non-alpha a low-value toy. It took weeks, but I finally got to the point that both dogs could play with their own toys without any beatings.
* I followed that routine for at least a month and was happy with the results. We'll occasionally have setbacks, but then I go back to the beginning.

I'd encourage you to read up more, though, and see if you can find examples on the 'net that are more like the kinds of problems you're having.

P.S. If the "Cesar" who gave you advice above is actually Cesar Milan, disregard everything I've said. :P

Everything you've said makes a LOT of sense to me.

This is going to be tough because I'm just going to have to get tough on Jaya. I let her get away with far too much just because she does try so hard to please. And because we've been praising Jenna for improving so much on her behavior, Jaya is feeling insecure.

I've been very aware of that, so I always make sure Jaya gets a treat first, gets her hugs first, gets everything first. And I'll try to avoid praising Jenna infront of Jaya, or breaking up the fights (i've been 'coo-cooing Jenna an awful lot because Jaya's been so mean to her... i'll have to stop that). I totally see that i've been interfering..... and i'm messing up the system.

Thank you for the terrific advice

[Jaya and Jenna]

Originally Posted by edumma

I agree with alaskayorkie. You have to establish yourself as the alfa of the pack. Jaya has clearly established that she is a higher statis than jenna but you have to show that you are a higher statis than jaya , that means you control everything ( food ,toys , playtime etc.) On the down side of this you will also have to treat jenna as a low ranking member of the pack , but dont stress over this as jenna will accept this. She will be under less stress also because jaya will not be putting her in her place all the time.The key to all this is to be a strong pack leader so that jaya doesnt think she has to keep the pack in order , she will look to you to do this.
Eileen

.......... What a great post Eileen!! Thank you!

.... I totally see what you're saying. I have to resurrect myself as leader of the pack in a more firm manner, and not let her get away with the little things.

I have been so firm with Jenna (because she's always been the naughty one), and her behavior is great.. always listens now, whereas Jaya...... thinks (and does) get away with pushing the limit. I've totally let my control slide ever since the girls got spayed....

(aww this is going to suck... back to square one... back to rules )

[alaskayorkie]

Oh, good. A lot of it is intuition and observation. What works in one case might not work in another, and you have to figure out why.

In my ignorance, I did sort of gloss over cesar49's legitimate point that first and foremost, you have to establish yourself as alpha. If you don't, the dogs have a tendency to get confused. They think it's their responsibility to be in charge, and they can behave aggressively. When you take control -- i.e., feeding schedule, toy time, first through the door -- they visibly relax because they can see it's not their responsiblity.

Good luck. It's not easy, but progress can often be seen in weeks if you stick to it! Let us know how it goes.

[Jaya and Jenna]

Originally Posted by alaskayorkie

Oh, good. A lot of it is intuition and observation. What works in one case might not work in another, and you have to figure out why.

In my ignorance, I did sort of gloss over cesar49's legitimate point that first and foremost, you have to establish yourself as alpha. If you don't, the dogs have a tendency to get confused. They think it's their responsibility to be in charge, and they can behave aggressively. When you take control -- i.e., feeding schedule, toy time, first through the door -- they visibly relax because they can see it's not their responsiblity.

Good luck. It's not easy, but progress can often be seen in weeks if you stick to it! Let us know how it goes.

I think your post was valid on all other fronts ... the alpha thing is a side issue.

I'm pretty sure she knows I'm the boss...she looks to me for everything... however, I believe if I continue the way I have been as of late (not consistent in my 'no'), she will usurp me as 'leader'....... I definitely gotta get a handle on things.

[Nancy1999]

Looks like you got a lot of good advice, I agree that unless there is a huge difference in size, it's better for the dogs to "work it out" themselves, although you can tell them "no." One way to establish yourself as the "alpha" is to become the "alpha eater," always eat your meal before you feed the dogs, and insist that the dog "sit" before setting their food down, always requiring them to "wait" until you give the "release" command. If they go for the food before you release them you pick up the food dish. This is actually a fairly easy thing to teach, and it usually takes no more than a couple of sessions. This lets the girls know YOU are the boss, and they need to behave in order to get food. I also agree with the above poster who said crating should never be used as punishment. The crate should be thought as a "refuge" and their safe place. I'm not big on the whole punishment thing, I think it has to be immediate to be effective, and saying "no", and shaking "pennies in a can" seems to be the most effective treatment for modifying undesirable behavior. Some people use a squirt bottle, but you have to chase them to do this, and that becomes a whole other issue. They really hate the sound of the pennies, and after a while your word "no" becomes more effective all by itself. Always say the word "No" first, followed by the can shake, in order to link the two properly. When training never use the word no, use a word like "uh uh", this lets them know that they will not receive reinforcement (a treat), but that they haven't done anything wrong. "No" should only be used to stop the immediate activity. A firm "No." It's great to watch Cesar do it; he even moves his body in such a way that he doesn't need the pennies in a can to stop the behavior immediately.

[Jaya and Jenna]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Looks like you got a lot of good advice, I agree that unless there is a huge difference in size, it's better for the dogs to "work it out" themselves, although you can tell them "no." One way to establish yourself as the "alpha" is to become the "alpha eater," always eat your meal before you feed the dogs, and insist that the dog "sit" before setting their food down, always requiring them to "wait" until you give the "release" command. If they go for the food before you release them you pick up the food dish. This is actually a fairly easy thing to teach, and it usually takes no more than a couple of sessions. This lets the girls know YOU are the boss, and they need to behave in order to get food. I also agree with the above poster who said crating should never be used as punishment. The crate should be thought as a "refuge" and their safe place. I'm not big on the whole punishment thing, I think it has to be immediate to be effective, and saying "no", and shaking "pennies in a can" seems to be the most effective treatment for modifying undesirable behavior. Some people use a squirt bottle, but you have to chase them to do this, and that becomes a whole other issue. They really hate the sound of the pennies, and after a while your word "no" becomes more effective all by itself. Always say the word "No" first, followed by the can shake, in order to link the two properly. When training never use the word no, use a word like "uh uh", this lets them know that they will not receive reinforcement (a treat), but that they haven't done anything wrong. "No" should only be used to stop the immediate activity. A firm "No." It's great to watch Cesar do it; he even moves his body in such a way that he doesn't need the pennies in a can to stop the behavior immediately.

Great post Nancy! I completely agree about the crate (though we don't use one). I've never even punished the girls by putting them back in their xpen if they've been bad - that is their safe haven. I'm going to try to pennies in a can and linking it to the "no" to make it stronger - and then stay consistent afterwards. Thanks for the stepbystep advice! I just love the way you communicate....... so efficient and precise.