What training style do you practice?

[daimbert]

Just wondering why form of training you guy do with your yorkies. What are the pro's and cons if any. I've heard of Clicker training, Positive reinforcement also the form of training advocated by ceasar milan (dog whisperer). Which do You like and has worked for you?

The first two clicker training and positive reinforcement I've heard that dogs become to dependent on treats to do anything. Ceasar Milans method from what I understand has more to do with dominance...where the dog just respects you our of fear (please don't get offended if I got that wrong). Also I've heard it's pretty old style (chokes etc) and not really advocated by most trainers now a day.

Also I love reading so recommend any books you like..

Thanks

John

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by daimbert

Just wondering why form of training you guy do with your yorkies. What are the pro's and cons if any. I've heard of Clicker training, Positive reinforcement also the form of training advocated by ceasar milan (dog whisperer). Which do You like and has worked for you?

The first two clicker training and positive reinforcement I've heard that dogs become to dependent on treats to do anything. Ceasar Milans method from what I understand has more to do with dominance...where the dog just respects you our of fear (please don't get offended if I got that wrong). Also I've heard it's pretty old style (chokes etc) and not really advocated by most trainers now a day.

Also I love reading so recommend any books you like..

ThanksJohn

Cesar Milan does not train by fear. Have you ever seen him with his dog pack? They sure don't look like they fear him. It is normal for dogs to have an assertive leader. The only time he takes one down is when they bite, then that is their consequence. They do not run from him, even after he has taken one down, they accept him as their leader, it's the natural way with dogs.

Also he does not train dogs, he trains the people and rehabilitates the dogs from their hangups that they obtained from being around weak people.

You should try to catch some of his shows, He is starting a new season next week on the National Geographic Channel. He is on tonight from 8 to 10

I prefer the Cesar Milan method of handling my dogs, as for the training part, I'm still working on that. I have one that will not lie down, no matter what.

But they wait at the door when I open it, they walk with me when I walk, and stop when I stop. When they jump and scratch at my legs I just point and they get down. Never once did I have to make them fear me, because I speak their language, and they know I am the leader and respect that.

I am looking into Basic training classes through our local kennel club, just for the fun of working with my dogs.

[Dougal&Little]

I like clicker training. you only need the clicker to teach a new behaviour then you can phase it out. and you don't have to use treats you can use a toy - but treats are a good way to start.

With agility I started out clicking dougal as he was doing each of the pieces of equipment so he knew what was the right action. Now that he knows that "over" means go over a hurdle I can do several in a row and then I'll play a tug of war game with him with a toy instead of clicking. Now doing a series of obstacles is nearly reward enough for him!

I'd say cesar milan / jan fennell methods are not incompatible with clicker training. Clicking is excellent for teaching a specific distinct behaviour e.g. jumping over a hurdle, staying. whereas the cesar milan / jan fennell methods are more about your entire relationship with your dog.

[peanut]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Cesar Milan does not train by fear. Have you ever seen him with his dog pack? They sure don't look like they fear him. It is normal for dogs to have an assertive leader. The only time he takes one down is when they bite, then that is their consequence. They do not run from him, even after he has taken one down, they accept him as their leader, it's the natural way with dogs.

Also he does not train dogs, he trains the people and rehabilitates the dogs from their hangups that they obtained from being around weak people.

You should try to catch some of his shows, He is starting a new season next week on the National Geographic Channel. He is on tonight from 8 to 10

I prefer the Cesar Milan method of handling my dogs, as for the training part, I'm still working on that. I have one that will not lie down, no matter what.

But they wait at the door when I open it, they walk with me when I walk, and stop when I stop. When they jump and scratch at my legs I just point and they get down. Never once did I have to make them fear me, because I speak their language, and they know I am the leader and respect that.

I am looking into Basic training classes through our local kennel club, just for the fun of working with my dogs.

I agree...I prefer his method also, let me tell what I got Max this week that is a great...Max is a GSD, I took Max to the vet for his last shots...He knows about 6 commands and usually does them...4 months old I think he is doing great...anyway Max was being so good, but the vet has 3 cats that run around in the office, he was pulling me, and wouldn't sit still, I asked the vet about the choke collars with spikes, he told me that they were better for him than the reg. collar because of choking him..So after we left there I took him to the pet store and got one...It was like a miracle, he did everything I told him and he didn't pull me, he waited on my lead....I am sorry but I have learned the hard way that you have to be the leader...I am working on Lexie & Peanut (good luck) but with Max going to weigh over 100 pounds I have to be in charge, so even with the little ones they have to know whos in charge...

[peanut]

Before someone says anything I only use harness on my yorkies....

[yougetthesmiles]

I water bottle train. Lillie hates the water and this is perfect for her. So when she is mis behaving, like begging, or chewing on something she is not suppose to have, I have a water squirt bottle that i spray her with and as I spray her I say "Lillie NO" and it has worked real well so far.

[MyTrixie143]

I use positive reinforcement only. I have been doing this type of training for years and it has always worked for me.
I have done some clicker training, but I still prefer just the positive reinforcement.
I hate hate Cesear's style of training and would never recommend it to anyone.

I think each dog is different and they way he/she learns is different. Keep in mind that what works for one person does not always work for another.

[chattiesmom]

Cesar Milan shares with us a wealth of information about how to communicate with our dogs in a manner that they can understand and are willing to accept. Either the dog will be dominate (leader) or submissive (follower). It is a shame that those two words evoke such negativity, because dominance and submission ensures a packs survival. Dominance and fear are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Dominance evokes positive respect, fear is simply negative.

And yes, it IS all about dominance. Dogs are pack animals. In a pack there is a clear leader who is dominate over all members of the pack. The other members respect this dominance and his ability to ensure the pack's survival. If you watch a pack of dogs behaving naturally without human intervention, you would see a well ordered society with very little physical aggression.

With that said, the training methods I use are a combination of my personal experience, having many years of working with animals under my belt. I read anything I can get my hands on regarding training, glean what I think will work for me and disregard the rest. What I have found works the best with my yorkies IS NOT what I do with the Boxer.

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by peanut

Before someone says anything I only use harness on my yorkies....

GOOD POINT! ME TOO! I am waiting to talk to the person who does the basic obedience class I want to attend to be sure that harnesses are allowed. If they are not, then I will find another class to attend.

[soneal]

I too like Cesar's training methods. I have ordered his book, it should be here soon. I love to watch his show, he makes it look so simple. Really I guess it is, you just have to let the dog know you are the head of the pack. Every time I watch his show I learn something new and I think why didn't I already know that, everything he does makes common since . I would love to meet him and let him help me with my Pomeranian, that is the main reason I ordered the book. Hopefully his book will help me resolve some of my Pom's issues.

[Erin]

I disagree with Cesar's training methods. They are old, outdated, many are proven to be bogus and many of the dogs look stressed and/or fearful. Forcing your dog to submit to you, rather than teaching them the proper way to behave, is quite lazy IMO. Considering so many people on this board will jump on someone for using a collar on their yorkie, I'm surprised so many will stand up for Cesar when he advocates using collar correction.

We use positive reinforcement (basically clicker with a "YES!" instead of a click) and treats. There is a difference between a "reward" and a "bribe". We have done 6 different training classes from puppy class to canine good citizen. It's fun. I don't like traditional harnesses so I use an Easy Walk by Premier on Loki. He has learned how to walk on a loose leash so the harness isn't necessary, but I still prefer to walk him on it for longer distances, places with distractions, etc. My trainer only discouraged traditional harnesses because they encourage pulling. Most of our work was done off leash anyway, except leash walking, and there was no correction. Many people continued to use harnesses or switched to Easy Walks with no problem, as long as they taught their dog not to pull.

BTW there is a difference between "leadership" and "dominance" and you don't have to be dominant to be the leader. As the leader, all the good things come from you. You ask your dog to sit before feeding him, sharing a toy with him, or taking him for a walk. You don't "own" the good things, you control them. If you dog behaves he gets good things. If he does not he gets ignored. We also use time-outs in the crate. With positive reinforcement you teach your dog how you want him to behave. You reward good behavior, and therefore see more of it.

If you would like some book suggestions, I would start with Pat Miller's books. Positive Perspectives or The Power of Positive Dog Training. Everyone should read The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell. If you are interested specifically in clicker training, read Karen Pryor's book. I am currently reading Bones Would Rain by Suzanne Clothier - more philosophy/stories than training but it's really good. Also look for Ian Dunbar, Turid Rugrass & Jean Donaldson.

By the way, putting a choke or prong collar on the wrong dog actually can make the dog fearful. Say the dog lunges for a kid (happily, to greet the kid) then you use the choke collar. The dog now associates PAIN with CHILDREN. Do this a few dozen times and your dog could develop a fear or agression towards kids that did not exist before. It is time consuming, though not difficult, to teach your dog to walk on a loose leash. It involves a lot of stopping, starting and rewarding. We learned this in class and practiced every day for about 3 weeks. You have to learn this in Canine Good Citizen - I would suggest that class to everyone!

[JeanieK]

[QUOTE=Erin]I disagree with Cesar's training methods. They are old, outdated, many are proven to be bogus and many of the dogs look stressed and/or fearful. Forcing your dog to submit to you, rather than teaching them the proper way to behave, is quite lazy IMO. Considering so many people on this board will jump on someone for using a collar on their yorkie, I'm surprised so many will stand up for Cesar when he advocates using collar correction.

QUOTE]

I am interested in seeing where it is PROVEN that Cesar's methods are bogus.

Have you ever actually watched the show. Those dogs do not look stressed to me, nor do they look afraid. His pack of dogs follow him willingly. If they were stressed or afraid they would not swarm around him when he enters the pen, they would crouch and try to attack him, or run and hide.

It is one thing to disagree with his method if you have another one that works for you, but to call his methods bogus is quite another thing.

All of the problems, that the dogs on his show have, stem from not having a clear leader in the house.

Now if you work with your dogs, then you have a clear leader in your home, so you are not going to have those types of problems. Good for you. But not everyone understands dogs and that they do need a clear leader. It is instinct. It's their natural way.

I believe that "dominant" is the wrong word, and Cesar avoids that word, he uses the terms "calm and assertive" there is a difference.

No one has claimed that Cesar's way is the only way to train, but I will go out on a limb to say that if you are not the clear pack leader in your house, you will not be able to train your dog using any method.

On the other hand if you are the clear leader, and are calm and assertive, you WILL be able to train your dog with ANY method.

Your dog has to be well balanced in order to train them and having a clear, calm, assertive pack leader, makes for a well balanced dog.

I's no different than raising a child. Someone has to be in charge and if it isn't the parent, than IT WILL BE the child.

[Erin]

Pat Miller is one of the most respected dog trainers out there. Here is her review of Cesar's book. The bold is mine, as those passages answer your questions.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
By Pat Miller http://www.peaceablepaws.com/
Originally found in http://www.thebark.com.
This article was originally published in Bark Magazine.

Almost every dog-training book has something to offer the discerning reader, and Cesar's Way is no exception. The book's strength is as an autobiography of National Geographic's TV dog-trainer star, Cesar Millan. If you're curious about how Millan got where he is today, this book will tell you. If you're looking for significant help training your dog, however, look elsewhere. Many in the behavioral science community view the tenets—and consequences— of Cesar's "way" with trepidation. In an interview published in the New York Times in February of this year, Dr. Nicolas Dodman, director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts University's Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, observed, "My College thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years." Millan provides little in terms of concrete training information, offering instead broad generalizations about projecting "calm-assertive energy" —a Millan catch phrase— and instilling "calm, submissive energy" in your dog. For example, in Chapter 8, he offers "Simple Tips for Living Happily with Your Dog." His "Rules of the House" include: "Wake up on your terms, not his … condition him to get quietly off the bed if he wakes before you do." "Don't allow possessiveness over toys and food!" "Don't allow out-of-control barking." Good advice, perhaps, but, nowhere in the book does he explain how to accomplish these things, other than by using calm-assertive energy. Millan is nothing if not confident. He admits to his "politically incorrect" reliance on old-fashioned dominance theory, stating, "To dogs, there are only two positions in a relationship: leader and follower. Dominant and submissive. It's either black or white." He even has the hubris to bemoan the unwillingness of authorities to allow him to rehabilitate Hera, one of the two notorious Presa Canario dogs who killed Diane Whipple in the hallway of her San Francisco apartment building. In Millan's world, every behavior problem is addressed in terms of dominance and submission. He even uses the alpha roll as part of his "dominance ritual"; this technique—forcibly rolling a dog on his side or back and holding him there —is considered by many to be a dangerous practice based on faulty interpretation of wolf behavior. It long ago fell into disfavor with trainers whose methods are based on the science of behavior and learning. Where Millan talks about "energy," science-based trainers talk about behavior, and generally agree that status in social groups is fluid and contextual, not black or white. Truly effective and long-term success in behavior modification requires a far more studied and complex approach than simply asserting dominance. Interpretation of dog body language diverges just as widely. Millan refers in his book to Kane, a Great Dane who appeared on his TV show who was afraid of slick linoleum floors. Millan claims that with less than 30 minutes of his calm, assertive influence, Kane was striding confidently down the slick hallway. Every trainer I know who has watched that segment notes the dog's post-Millan, obvious and ongoing stress signals: head and tail lowered, hugging the wall, panting. Millan touts the benefits of exercise in modifying dog behavior, a concept I heartily endorse. However, his book starts with a description of the four-hour exercise session he engages in with his pack of dogs every morning in the Santa Monica Mountains of Southern California, followed by afternoons spent rollerblading with those same dogs, 10 at a time, on the streets around his training center. One of the tenets of a successful training program is that it gives the dog owner tools he or she can apply. How many dog owners can spend six hours a day exercising their dogs? How many can project "calm-assertive energy"? The danger of Cesar's Way is that it assures owners that quick fixes and easy answers lie in the hands of a smiling man with the elusive calm-assertive energy. In fact, answers are better found in the beautiful complexity of life, where solutions are often not quick and easy, but are solidly built on a sturdy foundation and an understanding of how behavior really works.

[JeanieK]

Erin,

I'm still interested in seeing where it is PROVEN that his methods are bogus.

Just because someone does not agree with him, does not mean his methods don't work.. A professional, in the same field, that uses a different method is most likely going to say that someone else's method is ineffective. That is not proof.

Cesar could say that this other person's methods are ineffective, would that make it true? Her claims, most likely are based more on jealousy than any fact.

Also Cesar, never claims to train dogs. He trains the people to become calm and assertive so the dogs have a strong leaderf and are not being fed negative energy.

As for his throwing a dog on the ground and holding him there. It says very clearly that one should not attempt such measures unless they are a professional. Plus he only does that to a dog that has actually bitten, another dog or a person right then and there. That is the only time he actually physically dominates the dog.

Have you ever actually watched his show? I don't see that any of those dogs fear him. He simply approaches the dog in a very assertive way, once he has established who is in charge, you can train the dog by any method.

Picture a teacher in a classroom full of adolescents. If the teacher does not take charge, and set rule and boundries, the kids are going to be come unruly and you will not be able to teach them anything. If one child physically attacks the teacher or another child, he will be restrained, by force.

Super Nanny uses the same principal in controlling undisciplined children. It is a family where the parents have let the kids rule and this will never work. And if a child hits, kicks or bites, he is physically restrained until he calms down.

Same principal.

[stinky]

I would have to say my training method is positive reinforcement. I’ve never spanked her and I’m such a wiener I even feel bad yelling at her. But when she does something good she gets all kinds of attention and rewards. She’s not the best behaving dog, but does pretty well for having such a wiener Mom. Lol.