Puppy Classes ...

[poo]

I have a similar problem to a thread posted earlier. My pup is 3 months and I took her to her first class last Sunday. Unfortunately, in my small city only one place offers doggie obedience. The last thread suggested small breed puppy class, but I don't have that option. There were 4 Giant Schnauzer pups in the class , who were very aggressive. One bit my arm and cut my skin! Part of the class is off leash where the pups "play" together. Pancake was so scared, all the pups were after her (3 schnauzers were cornering her) and the instructor yelled at me twice for picking her up! What's a mother to do? There was only one pup smaller than Pancake who is 3 pounds - a 1.5 pound chiwawa, but the schnauzers weren't interested in him. My pup was the only one trying to escape the room. I don't know whether to go back (I did spend 161 dollars) because Pancake bit me so hard today when I was trying to take a big ball of dirt out of her mouth (she has never bitten my like that before, I take lots out of her mouth - she has growled and tried to stop me from taking it, but never biting!). The cut was really deep. I didn't know how to punish her (I was dissapointed, not angry). I said firmly "no biting" as I always do when she bites and tapped her on the nose and put her in her kennel. I don't know if she got the point. Any suggestions?

[rnnw62]

Since it is the trainers job to control the environment I
would ask them nicely what they plan to do to resolve
the chaos and make this an equally rewarding for you
and Pancake as it is for the other big dogs. If they don't
feel they can then I would tell them then it's not going
to work out and I do expect a refund. Putting her through
what she went through today is going to do more harm
than good but that's JMO. At any rate good luck!

[Rhapsody]

Exactly!!! You paid for a service -- you should get it!!! Sounds like they are blaming you, but no responsible trainer would allow socialization when puppies are so different in size. My trainer actually separates the class by size for certain exercises -- this insures the proper attention and safety for all animals in the class.

[poo]

Also... the company that provides the obedience service breeds these giant schnauzers and there is only one person (presumably an employee) looking after all four pups, even though on their website it says there has to be at least one person for each dog. There were a couple others who thought the schnauzers were too big and aggressive. Even at a few months they are up to my knees!!! Imagine if I let them get at my tiny Pancake

[poo]

Oh and when I tapped Pancake on the nose and put her in her kennel (for 3 minutes which is what I read others do on this forum) I didn't hurt her at all. I would never physically harm my tiny baby! She still thought I was playing and she doesn't even care when I put her in her kennel, that is why I said I didn't think she got it. I usually leave her in her kennel for something she does that is wrong. I say no and put her in. But she just goes back at it. I should look up more on how to punish them properly. If you punish at all?? I don't want to make her mad or sad... Thanks for your opinions!

[Annie&Badger]

Hiya!

First off, please don't use your puppy's crate/kennel to punish her. I'm not lecturing or anything and I know it's difficult (my little Badger can drive me crazy sometimes!) but the kennel/crate is a recreation of the wolf den which is a deeply ingrained zone in all dogs irrespective of breed and size. The den is where they go to feel safe and comforted and it should be used for when you have to leave for a period of time, when you're too busy to focus on her and when you need to give her a time out for her naps or main sleeping. The kennel/crate should never, ever be used to punish her. If you want to reprimand her using the isolation method, then leave the room for about a minute. This is much more likely to get a desired response from her. Dogs are hard-wired to do two things: MAKE YOU HAPPY and BE A PACK ANIMAL. The standard response for any negative behaviour is always ignoring - no smacking or any other type of punishment (including tapping her on the nose)

You haven't said how long you've had her but I can tell you with certainty that the first month or so is a little difficult because they're getting to know you. I've had Badger now for five weeks and it's only been in the last week or so that he's finally 'getting to know' me and bonding. Up until then, he was very much following his litter mates' behaviour which includes lots of nipping and biting. You are doing 100% the right thing in saying 'no biting' to her in a firm voice. In my limited experience: it's all about tone and not what you say. Have a firm but gentle tone and keep your voice low. Dogs growl at each other and it's the lower end of the scale that gets their attention. You are her leader and the central pivot of her whole world. Big responsibility huh?! As much as possible, don't let her put her mouth on you for any reason. Be very firm with this. It may seem like she's biting you out of irritation and what have you but in fact it's more than likely that she's either excited or a little scared and intimidated. You know you love her and wouldn't hurt her but she doesn't know that yet. Do what they do in the litter: if she nips or bites, yell in a high pitched voice (don't scream or frighten her) and walk away. You may need to do this several times a play session but she will soon get the message, believe me. I didn't think it worked but a month down the line, Badger occasionally mouths but there's no pressure now at all and he's just learning but he knows straight away and tries to suppress it by putting his paws over his mouth or licking my hand. They are amazing animals! If it's just a little bite (like when she's excited or playing) then just stiffen your hand and say 'no biting' even in a slightly playful voice. Just keep reinforcing all the time and use a rough scale of response. Little bites, little response, bigger bites, big response. If she's particularly snitty, then gently flip her over on her back and tickle her tummy. This is what their mother's do when they're getting out of control and it works 100%. You then give her the message that you are in control. Leave her on her back for a few seconds and hold her there, even if she struggles all the while tickling her tummy and talking to her in a low and gentle voice. You should do this periodically with her every few days as part of your play or cuddle sessions. At first Badger hated me doing this but he loves having his tummy tickled anyway and we've turned it into a kind of game now. He now just lies there and licks his lips. He knows who's boss!

There are some other things you can do. When she's sleeping or relaxed on your lap, put your fingers in her mouth gently and rub her teeth. She may resist at first but be gentle with her and do it as much as she'll let you. In time, she'll have no problem at all. She must get used to people putting their hands in her mouth anyway. This is a good tip for cleaning their teeth too which should be done every day if possible. Also do the same with her ears - gently rub them and her paws and tail area. She should also be used to 'looming' hands over her so play games with her where you come up quietly behind her, say her name and then give her a treat. This way she'll learn not be frightened of being handled or hands coming from unexpected directions

In terms of the puppy classes, some here may disagree with me but I think you should ask for a refund. It sounds like an awful experience for both you and little pancake and as far as I'm concerned, it could have turned very nasty indeed. If they won't give you one, then do as someone else here suggested and give them some feedback, asking that your puppy be exposed to smaller more friendly dogs. I don't think off-leash classes work myself. I've had some bad socialisation experiences with my puppy so I've decided I'm going to ask my vet for some names of other people in the practice with small or similar breeds and arrange a meetup for us all in a park or something. Chances are there are other people out there with the same problems so maybe think about that as one solution. All in all, it doesn't sound like a good or safe operation to me frankly

I also think you sound like you're a lovely and gentle person so don't get too caught up with the 'right' and 'wrong' things to do. Alot of this is gut instinct I think, so follow your heart and do what you think is in both your and pancake's best interests. She sounds like a little sweetie and in time, with a little patience, you'll have a lovely little honey who'll never be happier than when she's made you happy. Let me know if there's any other tips or advice you need because it sounds like we're roughly at the same stages with our puppies and I could do with some advice too . Annie x

[SnowWa]

I don't think you need to hurt a dog either - to train it.

But your tone of voice and your quick reaction and quickly putting her into her crate can say a lot.

I don't believe in being mean to a dog or ever hurting it in any way. But I do believe in being consistent, firm, and fast.... (especially if we are dealing with a serious problem - like biting).

You know if we don't respond instantly - they have no clue what we are reacting to. And, I know that my dogs definitely do not like to be in trouble. They are lovers - not fighters!

I don't think our little Yorkies do much that is wrong in the first place (hope most of you agree with me on this one). But, some things - like biting - need to be discouraged and stopped ASAP. I think being a little more strict than usual when something like this happens is acceptable.

We have to admit that some problems are more serious than others. I think biting is more serious than almost anything else a dog can do. And, of course, I'm not talking about puppy biting or teething biting. All our pups do this - and we doing whatever we can to stop it. But, aggressive biting (even with a very small little dog) is a much more serious problem. We need to definitely get their attention quickly and let them know that this is not acceptable behavior. I really think that our tone of voice and our instant reaction are our most powerful tools. They are with my dogs. And, my dogs almost never do anything that is seriously bad. That's probably why my tone of voice works so well - they don't hear that tone very often.

Good luck - Carol Jean

[Annie&Badger]

Yeah, but this is a twelve week old puppy. I've watched Badger very closely and he hasn't got any 'aggression problems'. He's just a puppy and he's closer in behaviour to that of his litter mates. It's important to make the distinction between what is playing and over-excitement and what is actual aggression. Dogs never bite out of aggression anyway. They bite out of fear and that means that the owner is at fault of putting them in a fearful position to start off with. The only way to stop a dog ever getting into the biting habit is to expose them to as many 'fearful' situations as possible from a very early age and get them used to it. So that means put your hands in your mouth, touch them unexpectedly, introduce them to lots of nice people and friendly dogs. Puppies should never, ever be crated to punish them. Their mothers don't lock them up so it's a useless concept. It makes sense to you but not to them. The best thing to do is teach them the 'inhibited bite': yell and walk away. Never use the crate as a form of punishment

[FirstYorkie]

Poo,

It sounds like you have 2 different issues. Here are my opinions on them.

First, the puppy class. If there are uncontrolled large dogs in the class who you already know are aggressive, I'd try to get my money back. Then try it again next session - call in advance and make sure that the one-to-one ratio is going to be enforced next time! I'm one of the biggest advocates of puppy classes on this board, BUT your pup's safety comes first.

Second, what you described with the ball of dirt sounds like object guarding to me. It is a very common problem in dogs. It's different than normal puppy biting. When you approach a dog who has something he wants to guard, he gets rigid, growls and then tries to bite. Here is an excellent article on the topic (it's how I worked through the problem with Joey):
http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...ctguarding.htm

Good luck!

[poo]

Thanks very much for the advice! I have had Pancake for about a month now, and she is my fist doggie. I don't think she was scared when I was trying to take the dirt from her. It sounds more like guarding to me... She also might have beem a little hungry too, I don't know if that would be an issue. I did take her back to puppy class today, but I was 20 minutes late on purpose to skip the playtime. The rest of the class is on leash. I do let her bite my hands a lot. I have read I shouldn't do this but she doesn't bite hard, she's just playing. Maybe I should stop this. Also, my boyfriend plays rough with Pancake and has been doing so since we got her. I have asked him not to do this, maybe this is where the extra aggression from Pancake is coming from? I only play fetch and run around with her outside.
She has been barking a lot more lately, and I don't really know the best way to go about stopping her from doing this. I say No Barking, but it doesn't help at all. I have also noticed that she is not the cuddliest pup ever... She sleeps in our bed but near our feet. When I her put her on my lap to cuddle she might stay for a minute but she climbs off and lies down a foot or so from me. I'm not sure if this is normal? I appreciate your opinions, they have been very helpful, any other suggestions would be appreciated.

[KingFelix]

I registered Felix in a puppy class, and the instructor called to reschedule me due to the fact that the only other puppies in the class were HUGE. She didn't want my little guy to be overwhelmed. I can't believe anyone would expect a tiny baby to be in a class with such large classmates. Especially if there's a "playtime". How horrible.

If you're interested in learning some things on your own, go to http://www.dogtraininginstitute.com Nancy Richards offers some good tips--best of all it's free. I get an e-mail every day with a training tip.

As far as the biting--keep up the "no biting" routine. Felix is doing well with those firm words. Also, the book "The Idiot's Guide to Yorkshire Terriers" offers some helpful words.

I have also read not to use the cage/kennel as a punishment. That way, when you have to leave your baby home, he doesn't feel "bad" when you put him in his kennel.

[FirstYorkie]

Originally Posted by poo

I did take her back to puppy class today, but I was 20 minutes late on purpose to skip the playtime. The rest of the class is on leash.

Brilliant! Great solution to the problem.

[Jaxon's mom]

I went through the same problem with Jaxon and the puppy class. Most of the other dogs were retrievers, shelties or other larger breeds. He was very overwhelmed and often quite scared. I left his bag on the ground so he could 'retreat' whenever he felt it was needed. When they had the playtime off the leash, I would let him try it out but pick him up when the other dogs were getting rough. They don't understand how small the Yorkies are! I am surprised the trainer yelled at you for picking up your baby. I mainly attended these classes for socialization and to pick up a bit of training information.

I agree with asking the trainer about controlling the other dogs and seeing if you could delay starting the classes. You should also look into the meet up groups (www.meetup.com) and see if there is a Yorkie group near you. Jaxon was just over 3 months old when we started the puppy classes - he's now 6 months and slowly getting better about being social with other people and dogs. Before he always crouched low to the ground. We are starting obedience classes this week and hopefully he'll be more comfortable. Hope it works out for you.

[Annie&Badger]

Good call on going in later to puppy classes! That's one way round the problem.

I'd definitely stop her biting. It seems cute now but if she thinks it's fine, then you'll have a problem on your hands when she's two or three pounds heavier and with her adult teeth. The other very important thing is, it may be okay for you but she will be handled by other people including vets and children in her lifetime and you definitely do not want her using her teeth as a form of communication with other people. I don't know what the laws are in Canada, but in the UK, if a dog bites anyone - unwittingly or not - it stands a very good chance of being put down under the dangerous dogs act. For her sake, stop her biting now. Have a word with your boyfriend too and ask him to play more gently with her. If she wants to play rough, then leave her to it on her own which is what I do with Badger. If he's in a very excitable mood, I just plonk him on the floor and give him one of his 'mean' toys and let him get on with it

As for the 'affection' thing. This is the exact same problem I came onto this forum with with my Badger. I was panicking for nothing! If you look through my original posts, I was almost considering giving him back but in the last couple of weeks (so weeks 14 through 16), he has become really affectionate. He still likes to sleep on his own but he's getting closer and closer. It's just a bonding thing and takes time but she'll be a very cuddly little pup in a few weeks, believe me