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Old 04-03-2006, 10:35 AM   #1
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THE TRAINER said to not let your pup be in front of you when going down stairs its a control thing ,and not let him bite on your hand. He thinks he wins then. When a pup take your shoes or clothing of yours it I win its mine. I thought it was a chewing thing. She said when tike get carried away with zip biggest proublem to say leave it or him. if he doesnt repeat if after that put him on a chain sit on the chain and he will pull from you and dont let him be in front of you or jump on you. he will finally stop tugging know u are boss and sit or lay down. he did. To say to him as u point to him look at me. she says every day put him on a chain and sit where he can lay down for 30 min let him loose when he acts up and wont behave put him on that chain. If I am making dinner when I cant sit and he acts up put him on a chain and clip it to me. only right now pet him when he does some thing right. praises his good behaviourZip likes to go in his crate for saftely alot let him he likes to poke out to play but when tike get carried away he goes all the way to the bk. when tike goes inside to hurt him tell leave it and if he wont take him out firmly and say no leave it. if he wont put him on chain again. what do u think? he was very good after that and submission but sound so hard
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Old 04-03-2006, 10:41 AM   #2
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I think that Caesar Milan trains the same way. Let us know if you continue it and how it goes.
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Old 04-03-2006, 11:22 AM   #3
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This is for a dog who is how old? If I'm not mistaken, your pup is still young enough to be teething...

Personally, I don't think it's all about "I win. No, you win". I really don't think dogs lay awake nights trying to conjure up ways to beat us and be "alpha". I don't think everything is a contest.

I *do* believe in teaching a drop-it command and a leave-it command. Joey does these extremely well. But, he's never been punished for non-compliance (other than not getting a treat). It's been taught strictly based on rewards for obeying.

There are those who think that the order you go down the stairs or out the door determines who is the "winner". I don't. There are those who think that a dog jumping up and trying to lick your face is showing dominance. I don't. Like many others, I think it's an appeasement behavior. There are those who think that when a dog stops struggling, he is showing submission. I don't. I think he's given up.

I must say that this is the first time I've heard of someone thinking that a puppy chewing on you is showing dominance. I don't. I don't think that any more of a puppy than I do of a human baby. I think they are teething, their gums hurt, and chewing makes it feel better.

I do think there are a lot of conspiracies in the world. I don't think that dogs are part of them. But, that's just me...
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Old 04-03-2006, 11:59 AM   #4
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I dont know if Caesar Milan uses chains for his training but there are some similarities in what he teaches. He teaches that the dog should never walk in front of you and should always walk beside you so it establishes that you are the pack leader. He has you shorten the leash while you are walking to get the dog used to walking beside you. For chewing he has you from a claw with your hand and put it over the dogs nose and say no bite. All trainers are going to have differrent teaching methods but I dont think a dog should be disciplined by a yanking for chewing.
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Old 04-03-2006, 12:01 PM   #5
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In retrospect, I see that my previous post (although accurate) is all about what I *don't* believe. Interestingly, that is the *exact* opposite of the way that I believe in problem-solving with dogs!

Here is what I *do* believe:

I believe that it is MUCH easier to teach a dog what you DO want him to do than it is to teach him what you DON'T want him to do. Puppy biting on your fingers? Teach him "get your toy" and "get your bone". Dog jumping on you? Teach him "off". Dog grabs an article of clothing that you've dropped? Teach him "drop it".

That's the way I see it...
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Old 04-03-2006, 12:52 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstYorkie
In retrospect, I see that my previous post (although accurate) is all about what I *don't* believe. Interestingly, that is the *exact* opposite of the way that I believe in problem-solving with dogs!

Here is what I *do* believe:

I believe that it is MUCH easier to teach a dog what you DO want him to do than it is to teach him what you DON'T want him to do. Puppy biting on your fingers? Teach him "get your toy" and "get your bone". Dog jumping on you? Teach him "off". Dog grabs an article of clothing that you've dropped? Teach him "drop it".

That's the way I see it...
same here
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Old 04-03-2006, 03:25 PM   #7
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Tike has been really good today. I do think more than anything he loves praises. I was having trouble with him going out the doggie door only when he wanted to and messing where he wanted to. I have been giving him treats out side when he potty and it working great today. He wouldnt just go out becauses I asked him to but now, he will go out. He races out the doggie door and potty out side right away. I am not convinced that he chew my stuff to be top dog but rather he teething and ,any thing looks good. He is fighting with zip but getting better. has any one heard of the leash time out? if he is hurting zip and wont leave him alone sit on the leash with him having to sit or laydown by you. And if I am to busy for that to put him on it and clip it to me.
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Old 04-03-2006, 06:06 PM   #8
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I agree with a lot of you - and to quote Caesar - "Some things are more tolerable with small dogs - that just can't be tolerated in larger dogs."

My little dog has so many different facets to his personality that I would be hard put to really label him. I think basically, he is submissive around people and other dogs. He scoots up to new people crouched down, but with no hesitation whatsoever, and immediately wants to kiss and play and be picked up. He is definitely not afraid of people or other dogs at all.

I think the point I want to make is that we don't want to make our little dogs be anything they aren't or try to train them to fit into what might be another person's picture of "the perfect dog" ----unless, of course, any of their behavior is bothersome, unpleasant, or not safe for them.

I enjoy seeing my little dog act so many different ways. He is basically quiet, somewhat shy, loveable, and playful, but also shows from time to time that he has a little mind of his own. There are some things that he is beginning to love to do, and he does his best to get to do them....like go outside - stay outside - ride in the car, etc. He loves to go to bed, and he may jump in bed and snuggle right up and go to sleep ---or he may jump in bed and drive me crazy wanting to play for a long time instead of going to sleep. (These nights are fun for both of us - to a point!)

For the life of me -- I can't figure out why some trainers think all dogs should go into a paper sack and come out acting the same. We certainly don't expect our children, or family, or friends to all have the same personalities and behave the same way all the time.

My personal opinion is that we should take the little dogs, let them be themselves as much as possible, and work hard to correct any faults they might have that are unpleasant or disruptive to the rest of the family unit. We want them to be a healthy, happy, fun, enjoyable part of our family.

I certainly don't think a little dog (or any sized dog) should rule the roost and cause constant problems (anymore than a two-year old child should do)....but I do love the constant surprises and different ways my little Yorkie behaves -- on a daily basis. He's only 7 months old - so, just imagine how much of life he hasn't even been exposed to yet - I'm sure he's in for a lot of surprises - and so am I!

Carol Jean

PS: I don't think my little guy's going down the stairs in front of me or behind me would make much difference in his personality. I think I usually carry him - or let him go first. (But, again - we are dealing with a small dog - not a horse!!!)
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Old 04-03-2006, 11:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARYKAY48
Tike has been really good today. I do think more than anything he loves praises. .... He wouldnt just go out becauses I asked him to but now, he will go out.... has any one heard of the leash time out? ...
Isn't it amazing how well treats and praise work??? The fact is that dogs - like humans - do what works for them. If going through the doggie door gets him what he wants (food & social acceptance) then he is much more likely to go through that doggie door. In the end, who cares WHY he is doing what you want so long as he's doing it.

Yes, I've heard of leash time-outs. While I'd rather that you first tried to accomplish what you want using positive methods, I don't see any harm in a time-out. I do think that 30 minutes is too long, though. After 1 or 2 minutes, they don't have a clue what they are in time-out for!
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Old 04-05-2006, 06:14 PM   #10
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Years ago I read a book by the Monks of New Skete who breed and train German Shepherds. As I recall (give me a break, I'm getting old here! ) they were very much into establishing yourself as the Alpha school of thought.

Anywho... One of their methods was to tie the dog to your belt so that you can constantly correct bad behavior in a stubborn dog. Sounds to me like the 'leash time out' that you're talking about.

I tend to train my dogs not so much to do tricks as to establish behaviors that make my life easier and theirs safer. Making them wait for me to go up or down stairs first isn't alpha motivated. It's I-don't-want-them-to-trip-me-and-break-my-neck-on-the-stairs motivated!!!

I have a really wide hardwood staircase, and it's cute to look over my shoulder and see 5 pairs of eyes lined up at the top staring at my feet and twitching in anticipation because they know when I get to the landing I will give the command that they can start down. And then again watching my feet from the landing until I get to the bottom and say they can come all the way down. When I get to the bottom of the stairs I step aside and all you-know-what breaks loose as they race each other to the dog door!

Okay.... I guess must get some kinda kick outta being the Alpha Bitch....
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Old 04-05-2006, 06:27 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstYorkie
This is for a dog who is how old? If I'm not mistaken, your pup is still young enough to be teething...

Personally, I don't think it's all about "I win. No, you win". I really don't think dogs lay awake nights trying to conjure up ways to beat us and be "alpha". I don't think everything is a contest.

I *do* believe in teaching a drop-it command and a leave-it command. Joey does these extremely well. But, he's never been punished for non-compliance (other than not getting a treat). It's been taught strictly based on rewards for obeying.

There are those who think that the order you go down the stairs or out the door determines who is the "winner". I don't. There are those who think that a dog jumping up and trying to lick your face is showing dominance. I don't. Like many others, I think it's an appeasement behavior. There are those who think that when a dog stops struggling, he is showing submission. I don't. I think he's given up.

I must say that this is the first time I've heard of someone thinking that a puppy chewing on you is showing dominance. I don't. I don't think that any more of a puppy than I do of a human baby. I think they are teething, their gums hurt, and chewing makes it feel better.

I do think there are a lot of conspiracies in the world. I don't think that dogs are part of them. But, that's just me...
I believe, that in this case, the one dog is trying to dominate the other and that is a problem. So the trainer is trying to get the owner to establish that she is the top dog. Ceasar Milan uses the same theory. If the human in the house does not make it clear that they are top dog, then one of the dogs will take the role. So what she is doing is making sure the dog knows who the boss is.
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Old 04-05-2006, 11:28 PM   #12
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Jeanie, we can agree that one dog is trying to dominate the other. In my experience, dogs are going to establish who in their dog pack is higher ranking no matter how much we humans interfere. It's going to happen. It's more subtle in some relationships than in others, but it's there.

What I disagree with is how this affects the dogs' relationship with their humans. I don't believe that dogs are really so daft as to think that humans are dogs. We aren't part of their pack. The fact that one dog is higher ranking in the pack than another doesn't mean that we rank lower in their eyes.

We're probably going to have to "agree to disagree" on this one which is fine. It would be a boring board if we all thought alike!
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Old 04-05-2006, 11:39 PM   #13
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Making them wait for me to go up or down stairs first isn't alpha motivated. It's I-don't-want-them-to-trip-me-and-break-my-neck-on-the-stairs motivated!!!
Sherry Lynn, I think that you and I pretty like-minded in our approach to our relationships with our dogs. I believe in training dogs to fit in to the household and in training an alternate, incompatible behavior when there is a dog behavior that is a problem.

Like your staircase example, I often make Joey sit and wait at the back door while I go out first. This has nothing to do with who is alpha. It's because I want to get out there first to make sure that the trash collectors and/or gardeners haven't left the gate open.

Joey also spends mealtimes in a down-stay on his "blankie". Again, it has nothing to do with being dominant. It's because his begging drives my 15 year old out of his mind! Problem solved.

BUT, oh my goodness, lets' not refer anyone to the Monks' book. That book did more to sanction abuse than any other. One recommendation was on how to correct a digger. Their idea? Fill the hole with water and hold the dog's head under water until he stopped skirming. For teaching a dog to heel? Pop the leash hard enough so that the dog yelps. If the dog doesn't yelp, you haven't been effective. Thankfully, their methods of training - while still in use by many - are going out of vogue!!!
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:29 AM   #14
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I like the dog going down the stairs behind me also but becauses. my mom lives with us and she is 80 yr old and. I dont want to see the pup trip her. I dont know if it is a alpha thing with dogs or not. This was the first I ever heard of all this. Tike and zip are playing much better and zip starts alot of it now. He is not afraid like he was. I am always there when tike gets carried away and Tike knows to play nice. One thing Tike does and im not sure why is when he has something he wants and I tell him to drop it,sometimes he wont and he will start to growl at me. I will put him in his place.
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