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02-12-2006, 08:54 AM | #1 |
Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 3,306
| Object Posessiveness In an effort to avoid the debate repeated on several other threads, I'm moving this question over here. I'm hoping that all this discussion on training will encourage a lot of threads on various training issues and techniques that we have actually used and have been successful. Yorkies are unique and require extra work to train, so I'm hoping we can all discuss various problems we are having and ideas on how to solve them. Loki is a fast learner, so I just need to find the right way to teach him this. I am currently having problems with drop (we trade) and leave it. He is very good with low value items but very bad with high value items, but he will usually trade for a treat OR if I shake the treat can (and yell come) he will come running and I can give him a treat and then go pick up the object. I only do this when necessary. If he steals a sock I ignore him. That DOES work and he drops it when he realizes no one will chase him. We are having problems when he has something like his Kong. Randomly he will freak out like someone is going to steal it and growl or bark. We either ignore it (like just walk past him like we were going to anyway) or I tell him NO and give him a time out. I could also try approaching him with a treat and giving him a treat when he lets me pet him. I've been trying to pet him a lot when he has a toy so he learns I'm not going to take it away. 9 out of 10 times he's fine. I don't know where this comes from. Could it be something as simple as my body language that I am unaware of? Also, he will leave something like a dropped paperclip if I ask but will growl/bark at me over a piece of cheese that falls on the floor. For that he gets an immediate time out. It IS improving but not there yet. I want to know what you all have done. The trainer says the freak out bark is his saying "DON'T TOUCH ME" or "I DON'T LIKE THAT!" It's like he does not know how to control his temper. I've discussed this with the trainer and will continue to follow up with her, but I need advice from Yorkie owners. I am also trying to treat him like a 50 pound dog and not handle him as much and respect his space. That is helping as well. Thank you for your help!
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02-12-2006, 09:04 AM | #2 |
YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Somewhere land
Posts: 364
| So you know this is a thought in process of becoming a plan. When I work on a problem I tend to talk out loud and ask questions as I go. Is the kong he has stuffed with anything? 1. when he was a kong. Try walking toward him to the point just before he gets fussy. Drop to the ground slow and roll him a kong with a treat in it his direction. If he drops the one that he was great go pick it up and not say a word. Do this as may times as you can with as may differnt treats in the kong as you can. working closer to him before you roll it. I want you low to be less threating. HAve you read Turid Rudrass book? might help. 2. Now the other thought would be to click him the second he drops the first kong and goes for the second to tell him he did as you wished. once that you can get closer and he gets the idea that good things come if one gives up. You may be able to work up to direct giveing him the trade. Just thoughts. Joy Last edited by Yorkie Mum; 02-12-2006 at 09:08 AM. |
02-12-2006, 09:56 AM | #3 |
Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 3,306
| Sometimes stuffed, sometimes not. He will usually just run away with a stuffed Kong/toy, but this is usually when he is sitting on his bed with the toy but either resting or not generally interested in the toy. Most of the time he is fine, this is totally random. He also did this the other day when I was unhooking him from his carseat. I had given him a bully stick to keep him occupied in the car. He was not even chewing on it when I went to unhook him, he was eager to get out. He barked at me like "Get away!" I just closed the door and left him there for a minute until he calmed down. I don't know if that was the right thing to do. I will definately continue with the trade. I always use a treat, I never thought to use a second stuffed toy/bone/etc. That makes sense. If he thinks I am going to take something chewable away and only give him a treat that is gone in 2 seconds that is not a fair trade. Also, I have never taken anything of HIS away from him like that, so I don't know why this is an issue? Getting down low is interesting, I will try that one! My husband is much taller than me and bigger in general. Could that be why most of the time this is directed toward him? I have seen a difference when I sit down next to him and approach him like that. I will pay more attention now. He finally did learn fetch and therefore the drop command. He places the toy IN MY HAND when I say drop to ensure that I know he brought it back and guarantee his treat. So I know we can fix this I just need help. Also, is it possible that he is just afraid I am going to pick him up/pet him and he does not want that at that particular time? Could that be part of it? If so, what do I do to teach him a better way to react? Like, I am trying to make the bed and he is on it (he is allowed). Before I would have picked him up moved him and he would have barked at me (I could see that look.) Instead I asked him to get off. He did. Now he is fine.
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02-13-2006, 02:41 AM | #4 |
YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: American in London
Posts: 1,739
| Hi Erin, Here are a couple of thoughts for you. First, with the Kong (or any other object Loki guards), you want to treat it the same way you described for Joy with food guarding. Walk by, say his name, and drop treats. When Loki stops chewing and looks up eagerly for his treat, you know you can slowly progress. Talk softly to him, touch his hindquarters, and drop a treat. Repeat many times. If he acts defensive at all, you're going to fast, back up a step. Eventually you should be able to pet him and give him treats while he has a high value object. The end goal is a dog that looks up eagerly for his treat any time you are in the vicinity. Please note that all members of the household will have to do this exercise. Just because Loki learns that you are not a threat, doesn't mean that he no longer sees your husband as a threat. Dogs don't generalize well. As far as extending his response to the drop it command, Joy is right. In addition to giving a treat, you should make a trade. When possible, trade for something higher in value that what he has. In order to have a dog that reliably drops things, you need to practice the command many, many times with objects that he CAN have. Start with lower value items. Got a toy? Drop it. Treat. Pick the object up, look at it, and give it back to the dog. You should give objects back 75 -90% of the time. Don't just use "drop it" when you are being a meanie and taking things away! As you progress to bones (and Kongs), do the above, but make the bone even better - smear a bit of peanut butter or cheese on it before giving it back. Make it well worth it to Loki to give the item to you. The good news about object and food guarding is that these behaviors CAN be treated (if you're willing to work at it)!
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02-13-2006, 09:28 AM | #5 |
Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 3,306
| Great suggestions we will work on this. Definately willing to take the time. It's really not as serious as I make it sound, I just FEEL that it's serious. He doesn't do this every time, not even MOST of the time, and if he sees a treat he's always fine no matter what. I just am concerned if a kid or my mom or someone goes up to him and he freaks out on them. So I want to "fix" it now. I cannot figure him out. I don't know if this is even his real issue. He does have a hard time giving things up but his "drop" is getting more and more reliable. It's 100% if I have a treat, about 25% when I don't. It's more like he is just freaking out temporarily and then it goes away. Like if we are watching TV and he is on his bed near us, and one of us gets up, he will sometimes get up and start barking at us. Then sometimes he will run OVER to a toy or something 5 feet away and pick it up like we're going to steal it. Maybe it's just his backwards way of trying to initiate play. But then also, if he's on his bed with NO toys or anything and I get up and walk past him - most times he is FINE and ignores me or gets up and follows me. But then once a week or so he will just start fiercely barking at me (or my husband). This weekend we tried Joy's suggestion of approaching him by getting low. Sometimes with a treat but mostly not. He is fine with this and we did not have a problem. Part of the problem is that totally randomly if we reach to pet him, especially if he thinks we are going to MOVE him, he will snap. And not bite, just open his mouth and do this growly bark snap thing. It's so wierd and does not happen often, just enough to make me concerned. Most times he's all over us and will roll over for a belly rub. Even if he is just being moody, this is NOT ok and I need to work with him to re-direct this. Is the answer just to always approach with treats? I am always calm with him, even when he "earns" a time out. I do always remind my husband to be extra calm and not get upset, and he is doing much better. They are best buds and it really bothers him when Loki acts out towards him. He thinks Loki doesn't like him, but even though I am "mommy" my husband is the fun one. He trains Loki more than I do and they are together all day. Loki loves him. Also, even more randomly he did this to my mom in the car the other day. I was holding Loki (we were only going 2 blocks otherwise it's in the car seat) and my mom was driving. The whole way she was petting him, but the one time she reached over to pet him and he barked at her. He LOVES my mom. I say "Grandma" and he's running around the house, looking out the door, trying to find her. All she did was reach to pet him and he freaked! Then for the rest of the day he was a sweetie. Why??? Another thing he will do is if I do something like walk to the front door and ask him if he needs to go outside, he will RUN to his food bowl and start eating frantically and barking at me (similar to his alarm bark) and of course choking! I don't make any move to take his food away, and I typically leave it down until he eats it all. He has NO reason to do this, and it only happens maybe once every 2-3 weeks. I will walk over to him while he is barking at me, clip on his leash, and just walk to the door. The minute my hand hits the doorknob he is fine again like nothing happened, happily goes outside and does his thing, then comes back in. Sometimes he goes back to the bowl sometimes not. It's SO random. Is he just quirky? Also, if it helps this is a fairly new issue that developed around his 1st bithday. So only about 3 months. He also has this same freak out bark reaction to a lot of dogs. When he was in puppy class he would wrestle and play with all the other dogs, now he just feels the need to bark at them. At training class we have to keep his contant attention and praise him for approaching another dog the proper way (sniffing, etc.) He will sniff a dog and then the dog will go to sniff him and he freaks! He also gets jealous if I pet the other dogs (so my husband gives him treats while I pet other dogs). Anyway, he is just not polite when it comes to other dogs. He goes to daycare every week and class once a week too. It is getting better but very slowly! I don't feel like he is being agressive or dominant though, since his posture when approaching the neighbor dog, for example, is a low, respectful pounce/play stance. He only freaks when the other dog "invades his space." He's like a toddler who won't share his sandbox. Help!
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02-13-2006, 10:48 AM | #6 |
YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: American in London
Posts: 1,739
| Erin, You are describing a whole lot of different issues here - object guarding, food guarding, location guarding, and several others. I think it would be best if you consulted your trainer - IF she is a positive trainer - about all of this. Some one-on-one sessions would probably be called for! Several times you talk about him barking and "freaking". It's hard for me to picture exactly what he's doing. When your Mom reached to pet him, he barked. Did he growl? Did he nip at her? When other dogs try to smell him back, what does his "freaking" look like? Barking? More? How does he act when he is "jealous" of you petting other dogs?
__________________ FirstYorkie We Love Clicker-Training! |
02-13-2006, 11:12 AM | #7 | |
Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 3,306
| Quote:
When he is jealous he either tries to crawl in my lap (or up my leg) and push the other dog away OR he barks at ME (not at the dog). He does have a low growl that he does if he hears a noise outside or something like that. But this is a bark. He has two different kinds. One I swear sounds exactly like a gobble. The "freak out" bark is a high-pitched almost screaming. It's similar to his alarm bark but less howling. The difference is the alarm bark would be directed at the car in the driveway and this bark is directed at whoever "disturbed" him. When he "snaps" he doesn't bite he just barks 4 or 5 times really fast and then stops. The reason I am unsure if he is guarding the food is because I can stick my hand in the food bowl and he's OK with that. It's more like he's afraid we are leaving and he "needs" to eat. He likes to have someone in the kitchen with him when he eats, though he will eat by himself sometimes too. The trainer says the bark is like "I didn't want that!" or a "don't touch me!" Like "I don't want to go outside I want to eat!" We've corrected the food/door thing by simply waiting for him to ask to go outside by ringing his bell. But he just has this temper that's crazy! The trainer also said he might just grow out of it IF we don't tolerate it and he's testing us. She's seen him in action with other dogs at daycare and at class and is not extremely concerned. He's never been hurt nor has he hurt another dog, they just have a bark-off. The problem is I'm afraid he might do it to the WRONG dog. He also doesn't do it every time and she says he is 10 times worse when I am there. (And I do NOT spoil him at home. No free lunch program all the way.) He just barks, he doesn't bite. At first it spooked me but now I'm confident I can pick him up and say "time out!" Sometimes I can even say "Loki, crate!" and he trots over there like nothing happened. The tantrum is over as quickly as it starts and it's easy to calm him down. Also, recently I've been trying to distract him from it. If he starts up I immediately ask him to sit, his oldest and most reliable command. He usually complies and calms down immediately. I just keep thinking redirect him. The thing is, this doesn't happen every day nor even in the same situation more than once. It happens maybe once a week. It's not a huge issue that's taking over our lives but I want to take care of it now. I have to say that it IS improving just not as quickly as I'd like. He is learning it's not cool and he can't get away with it. I'm going to try all of your suggestions and report back in a few days
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02-13-2006, 11:30 AM | #8 |
YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: American in London
Posts: 1,739
| Without seeing it, it's hard to comment. The situations where he only barks - even if it is at you - don't concern me much. To me, barking is just talking. The first thing that I'd recommend is isolating for yourself when it is he actually growls and snaps. These are the situations that need to be addressed, regardless of how infrequently they happen.
__________________ FirstYorkie We Love Clicker-Training! |
02-13-2006, 11:37 AM | #9 | |
Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 3,306
| Quote:
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02-14-2006, 05:32 PM | #10 | |
YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Somewhere land
Posts: 364
| Quote:
I was told does not mean i do. To mark down where we started what went right and not so right any thing that is a concern and in context just after it happens. One so you can see progress for the bad days. the other is catch problems and see things that need work. Mine is on the bed side table empty along with a ll the fun books I like to have time to read. Joy | |
02-14-2006, 05:39 PM | #11 |
Princess Poop A Lot Donating Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado
Posts: 6,728
| I love to read the posts the 3 of you do. It is very obvious to me that you spend an incredible amount of time reading and studying positive training. YT is very lucky to have the 3 of you as members.
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02-14-2006, 08:51 PM | #12 |
YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Somewhere land
Posts: 364
| Erin If it is ok with you Can I print off what you have posted and read through it a few times. Then I can Pm you my thoughts. It hard to read so much off the scearn and follow it. With it in hand I can write little notes that will make more sence in the end. I will get back to you but it may take time. Joy |
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