Gio's Mamamia - Tell us what you are seeing - YorkieTalk.com Forums

Yorkie Mum · 01-21-2006, 10:42 PM

I was reading in other posts that you have concerns about your little one becoming aggressive.
What are you seeing?
What gives you that feeling?
What are the concerns?
We can go from there with suggestions and reading material.

Joy

skingstone · 01-22-2006, 02:08 PM

I would like to know also.....just curious. I don't have any issues but my pup is only 14 weeks. He's very quiet well adjusted dog and i pray it stays that way! I'm just waiting for the rug to get pulled out from under me! He hardly barks, sleeps all night and hardly ever gets scared. We took him to my son's birthday party with 12 screaming boys in a private room. He just watched and sniffed around. Even my sister in law who's a vet said he was doing amazing....so now I want to know what to look for so i nip stuff in the bud!

Yorkie Mum · 01-22-2006, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skingstone

I would like to know also.....just curious. I don't have any issues but my pup is only 14 weeks. He's very quiet well adjusted dog and i pray it stays that way! I'm just waiting for the rug to get pulled out from under me! He hardly barks, sleeps all night and hardly ever gets scared. We took him to my son's birthday party with 12 screaming boys in a private room. He just watched and sniffed around. Even my sister in law who's a vet said he was doing amazing....so now I want to know what to look for so i nip stuff in the bud!

Socialize the stuffing out of him and socialize more.
Make sure that nothing over whelms him.
Then find a nice gentle training course and put first level obedience on him
Read Click for Joy by Melissa C Alexander. I always say read On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals By Turid Rugaas. You be amazed at what you will understand after this book.
Then maybe after those two. The Other End of the Leash : Why We Do What We Do Around Dogs By Patricia B McConnell PH.D.
These are just good general knowledge book.

Joy

Gio'sMamamia · 01-22-2006, 09:12 PM

Sometimes Giovanni will chew on things he isn't supposed to and I know it's normal, but lately when I try to take said things away he'll growl and sometimes snap at me. Other times he'll nip at my feet as well as everyone else's in the house, I firmly tell him NO but he keeps on doing it. Also when I tell him not to do certain things he'll bark back at me, as if he were talking back. All insight is welcomed and much appreciated. And if you wanted to know Giovanni will be 3months as of tomorrow.

FirstYorkie · 01-23-2006, 01:13 AM

Skingstone - I second YorkieMum's suggestions. You want to expose your pup in a positive way to as many dogs and as many strangers as is humanly possible, especially between now and about 20 weeks. After 20 weeks, socialization is still important, but the window before 20 weeks is critical.

YorkieMum's book suggestions were good ones. I would add Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson.

FirstYorkie · 01-23-2006, 01:17 AM

Gio's Mamamia,

Most of what you describe is very normal puppy behavior. The only aspect that I would be concerned about is the "object guarding" - growling and snapping when you try to take something away. You want to do something about that before it escalates, but the good news is that this CAN be treated.

I don't have time right now, but I'll post some suggestions for you later. Or, perhaps YorkieMum will get back to you before me....

[In the meantime, what I absolutely do NOT recommend you use is the "alpha roll" that many members here advocate. I believe it is likely to make your pup worse.]

KimMee's Mom · 01-23-2006, 06:44 AM

May I ask why you think the Alpha Roll is harmful. I have had two trainers tell me to use and even my Vet!!! thanks to all for the books info

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirstYorkie

Gio's Mamamia,

Most of what you describe is very normal puppy behavior. The only aspect that I would be concerned about is the "object guarding" - growling and snapping when you try to take something away. You want to do something about that before it escalates, but the good news is that this CAN be treated.

I don't have time right now, but I'll post some suggestions for you later. Or, perhaps YorkieMum will get back to you before me....

[In the meantime, what I absolutely do NOT recommend you use is the "alpha roll" that many members here advocate. I believe it is likely to make your pup worse.]

FirstYorkie · 01-23-2006, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KimMee's Mom

May I ask why you think the Alpha Roll is harmful. I have had two trainers tell me to use and even my Vet!!!

I don't think the alpha roll it necessarily physically "harmful" but I do think that a) it isn't effective b) it makes many dogs worse and c) it damages your relationship with your dog.

From VeterinaryPartner.com:
"Oh, stop that alpha rollover! That is making her more and more defensive! Even the people who originally wrote that book and recommended that maneuver changed their position on it some years later, but unfortunately people keep teaching it, and doing it. It is extremely harmful to the relationship between dog and owner in many cases. The dogs in which it does no harm, didn't need it anyway!"

From ClickerSolutions.com:
Some so-called experts even suggest using violent techniques like scruff shakes and alpha rolls. At the extreme end, some trainers once advocated downright abusive methods, such as hanging a dog by a choke chain and leash (called helicoptering) until she passed out, or forcing her head underwater until she lost consciousness. These tactics were considered treatment for behaviors as mild as digging or as serious as aggression.

From FirstYorkie: Although this article refers to that time of abuse in the past tense, trainers continue to use these tactics. The fact that a trainer (or a vet) recommends something doesn' necessarily make it okay.

Also from VeterinaryParnter.com:
What is interpreted as dominant behavior of a dog toward humans is usually the result of misunderstandings between the family and the dog. These can sometimes be profound, even tragic. Some people manage to ruin their puppies over the issues of housetraining and the chewing that accompanies teething. When the natural behavior of a dog is viewed as stubbornness, defiance, anger and dominance on the part of the dog, it’s a recipe for disaster.

Mishandling a dog for training results in a dog who distrusts and fears humans. When negative behavior from the dog emerges, it may be labeled dominance when actually it’s fear or defensiveness or both. The dog doesn’t have many options. When you corner the dog, the option of running is taken away. If the dog freezes and you still yell and hit, there’s really no further recourse for the dog other than self-defense.

_______________________________

Gio'sMamamia · 01-23-2006, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirstYorkie

Gio's Mamamia,

Most of what you describe is very normal puppy behavior. The only aspect that I would be concerned about is the "object guarding" - growling and snapping when you try to take something away. You want to do something about that before it escalates, but the good news is that this CAN be treated.

I don't have time right now, but I'll post some suggestions for you later. Or, perhaps YorkieMum will get back to you before me....

[In the meantime, what I absolutely do NOT recommend you use is the "alpha roll" that many members here advocate. I believe it is likely to make your pup worse.]

That's very good to hear about everything you touched on, especially that the "object-guarding" can be treated. It was also mentioned in the thread about socializing w/ different people and different dogs. Giovanni hasn't had his last set of shots yet (which should be next week actually), so I don't want him around any other dogs yet. But after he's had his shots were would be a good place to socialize with other dogs aside from places like Petsmart and the park?

Yorkie Mum · 01-23-2006, 07:33 PM

Guarding, he is tiny so class for socializing. A nice puppy class with pups that are mannerly and if they are not get him out of there.
Or find an older smart calm well spoken dog... Read on Talking terms with dogs and you will understand.
Groweling ... Well it not great it is understandable. Look at it from his point of view you are taking a treasure and well not trading. We trade things with our Human kids do it with the dogs to.
So you show a treat and put out our hand to take the other as he reaches for the treat tell him good boy and pass another treat. Take his food, take the toys everything is yours unless you give it and then you can ask for it back and trade a treat.
MINE! A GUIDE TO RESOURCE GUARDING IN DOGS
by Jean Donaldson
http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.c...45027&Method=3

http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...ctguarding.htm

Joy

FirstYorkie · 01-24-2006, 01:00 AM

Gio'sMamamia, yes, I agree with you on the socializing; it's best to wait until he's had all of his shots before letting him interact with other dogs. You do want to control his interactions with other dogs to be sure that they are positive experiences for him. Besides what you mentioned, go any place that people walk their dogs. Having the experience of meeting other dogs on a leash for a count of 3 and then moving on is also good for them. Of course, the best place of all for dog-dog socializing is puppy obedience school! And besides, it's fun!

As far as the object guarding, here's what I've learned from trainers and reading. (Joey used to have this problem, too). You want to teach your dog a "drop it" command. Basically this is done when he has a lower value object in his mouth that he isn't like to guard. Offer him a treat when he has something in his mouth. As he drops it to reach for the treat, say "drop it" and give him the treat. Pick up what he has, look at it, and give it back. If he can't have it back, offer something else for him to chew or play with. Repeat a bazillion times, making an effort to give things back to him far more often than you take them away. If it's something he can chew on, when you pick it up, smear it with a little peanut butter or soft cheese and give it back. You want him to learn that dropping things on your command is a winning proposition for him!

The link Joy gave you is an excellent article on resource guarding:
http://www.clickersolutions.com/art...ectguarding.htm
The small book she mentioned "MINE!" is also an excellent resource.

In the meantime, try very hard not to chase him and not to corner him. You will make him more defensive. Instead, pick up a treat (keep them handy or on your person) and something to substitute for the forbidden object and walk over. Offer these and see if he will trade. If not, try rolling the treat beside him - as he turns his head to grab it, snatch the forbidden object. This is fair in the doggie world.

Alot of people feel that you have to establish dominance over the dog in these situations. I don't. What worked with Joey is training an alternate, incompatible behavior. He can't guard something if he's following a "drop it" command and getting a treat. We both win.

ldenise · 01-25-2006, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yorkie Mum

I was reading in other posts that you have concerns about your little one becoming aggressive.
What are you seeing?
What gives you that feeling?
What are the concerns?
We can go from there with suggestions and reading material.

Joy

I think I am going to have a real problem with Archie if I dont get on top of this and fast. he was born 10/20/05 along with 3 others. none of the others have shown this type of agression. I am reallly glad that I didn't sell him (among other reasons) because of this agression. I dont think this is typical puppy agression. when I go to take something away from him that he is not supposed to have, he growls and shows teeth. today he sunk his sharp teeth in my finger, drawing blood. its like he becomes a different dog! its more like a temper. he even grawls at his mother and attacks her. she will back off and then go back and do her dominating stance with him.(gathering him under her front legs and holding him there).
any suggestions?

FirstYorkie · 01-25-2006, 10:27 AM

Again, I'd teach a strong "drop it" command and read up on object guarding.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/art...ectguarding.htm
The small book "MINE!" by Jean Donaldson is also an excellent resource.

deb4air · 01-25-2006, 02:37 PM

I am so grateful that you posted all these things about behaviors .Miss Mini has a good nature about her sometimes I can miss understand her I try hard to think of her as a little one trying to get what they want or to tell you what they want without words , seems like if i have a test of wills mine gets depleted ,The best thing Ive found so far is to talk gently ..hold gently and let her know I am the momma of this house ,some days it seems like shes just having a bad day not unlike us " So in all of this puppy "training period " I hope I am doing it right ,I know I am loving her lots .

Yorkie Mum · 01-25-2006, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ldenise

I think I am going to have a real problem with Archie if I dont get on top of this and fast. he was born 10/20/05 along with 3 others. none of the others have shown this type of aggression. I am reallly glad that I didn't sell him (among other reasons) because of this aggression. I dont think this is typical puppy agression. when I go to take something away from him that he is not supposed to have, he growls and shows teeth. today he sunk his sharp teeth in my finger, drawing blood. its like he becomes a different dog! its more like a temper. he even grawls at his mother and attacks her. she will back off and then go back and do her dominating stance with him.(gathering him under her front legs and holding him there).
any suggestions?

I would let her discipline him.
She is making it very clear that he is doing something wrong and as a dog that is younger he should learn respect.
You are talking aggression in a# month old pup. Not a good sign.
He needs to be neutered, I start the protocol for leader ship.
So everything he wants or needs or asks for he must to a sit, or down or anything that he can do then he can be let out o pee or given supper.
I would also recommend that he get puppy school in a clicker manner so it soft and gentle.
Finally he was drawn blood which is not great at a young age. I would go talk to a behaviorist sooner then later.

Joy

01-21-2006, 10:42 PM	#1
Yorkie Mum YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Somewhere land Posts: 364	Gio's Mamamia - Tell us what you are seeing I was reading in other posts that you have concerns about your little one becoming aggressive. What are you seeing? What gives you that feeling? What are the concerns? We can go from there with suggestions and reading material. Joy

01-23-2006, 01:13 AM	#5
FirstYorkie YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: American in London Posts: 1,739	Skingstone - I second YorkieMum's suggestions. You want to expose your pup in a positive way to as many dogs and as many strangers as is humanly possible, especially between now and about 20 weeks. After 20 weeks, socialization is still important, but the window before 20 weeks is critical. YorkieMum's book suggestions were good ones. I would add Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. __________________ FirstYorkie We Love Clicker-Training!

01-23-2006, 01:17 AM	#6
FirstYorkie YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: American in London Posts: 1,739	Gio's Mamamia, Most of what you describe is very normal puppy behavior. The only aspect that I would be concerned about is the "object guarding" - growling and snapping when you try to take something away. You want to do something about that before it escalates, but the good news is that this CAN be treated. I don't have time right now, but I'll post some suggestions for you later. Or, perhaps YorkieMum will get back to you before me.... [In the meantime, what I absolutely do NOT recommend you use is the "alpha roll" that many members here advocate. I believe it is likely to make your pup worse.] __________________ FirstYorkie We Love Clicker-Training!

01-24-2006, 01:00 AM	#11
FirstYorkie YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: American in London Posts: 1,739	Gio'sMamamia, yes, I agree with you on the socializing; it's best to wait until he's had all of his shots before letting him interact with other dogs. You do want to control his interactions with other dogs to be sure that they are positive experiences for him. Besides what you mentioned, go any place that people walk their dogs. Having the experience of meeting other dogs on a leash for a count of 3 and then moving on is also good for them. Of course, the best place of all for dog-dog socializing is puppy obedience school! And besides, it's fun! As far as the object guarding, here's what I've learned from trainers and reading. (Joey used to have this problem, too). You want to teach your dog a "drop it" command. Basically this is done when he has a lower value object in his mouth that he isn't like to guard. Offer him a treat when he has something in his mouth. As he drops it to reach for the treat, say "drop it" and give him the treat. Pick up what he has, look at it, and give it back. If he can't have it back, offer something else for him to chew or play with. Repeat a bazillion times, making an effort to give things back to him far more often than you take them away. If it's something he can chew on, when you pick it up, smear it with a little peanut butter or soft cheese and give it back. You want him to learn that dropping things on your command is a winning proposition for him! The link Joy gave you is an excellent article on resource guarding: http://www.clickersolutions.com/art...ectguarding.htm The small book she mentioned "MINE!" is also an excellent resource. In the meantime, try very hard not to chase him and not to corner him. You will make him more defensive. Instead, pick up a treat (keep them handy or on your person) and something to substitute for the forbidden object and walk over. Offer these and see if he will trade. If not, try rolling the treat beside him - as he turns his head to grab it, snatch the forbidden object. This is fair in the doggie world. Alot of people feel that you have to establish dominance over the dog in these situations. I don't. What worked with Joey is training an alternate, incompatible behavior. He can't guard something if he's following a "drop it" command and getting a treat. We both win. __________________ FirstYorkie We Love Clicker-Training!

01-25-2006, 10:27 AM	#13
FirstYorkie YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: American in London Posts: 1,739	Again, I'd teach a strong "drop it" command and read up on object guarding. http://www.clickersolutions.com/art...ectguarding.htm The small book "MINE!" by Jean Donaldson is also an excellent resource. __________________ FirstYorkie We Love Clicker-Training!

01-22-2006, 02:08 PM	#2
skingstone Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 210	I would like to know also.....just curious. I don't have any issues but my pup is only 14 weeks. He's very quiet well adjusted dog and i pray it stays that way! I'm just waiting for the rug to get pulled out from under me! He hardly barks, sleeps all night and hardly ever gets scared. We took him to my son's birthday party with 12 screaming boys in a private room. He just watched and sniffed around. Even my sister in law who's a vet said he was doing amazing....so now I want to know what to look for so i nip stuff in the bud!

01-22-2006, 09:12 PM	#4
Gio'sMamamia Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: El Paso,Tx Posts: 31	Sometimes Giovanni will chew on things he isn't supposed to and I know it's normal, but lately when I try to take said things away he'll growl and sometimes snap at me. Other times he'll nip at my feet as well as everyone else's in the house, I firmly tell him NO but he keeps on doing it. Also when I tell him not to do certain things he'll bark back at me, as if he were talking back. All insight is welcomed and much appreciated. And if you wanted to know Giovanni will be 3months as of tomorrow.

01-23-2006, 07:33 PM	#10
Yorkie Mum YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Somewhere land Posts: 364	Guarding, he is tiny so class for socializing. A nice puppy class with pups that are mannerly and if they are not get him out of there. Or find an older smart calm well spoken dog... Read on Talking terms with dogs and you will understand. Groweling ... Well it not great it is understandable. Look at it from his point of view you are taking a treasure and well not trading. We trade things with our Human kids do it with the dogs to. So you show a treat and put out our hand to take the other as he reaches for the treat tell him good boy and pass another treat. Take his food, take the toys everything is yours unless you give it and then you can ask for it back and trade a treat. MINE! A GUIDE TO RESOURCE GUARDING IN DOGS by Jean Donaldson http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.c...45027&Method=3 http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...ctguarding.htm Joy

01-25-2006, 02:37 PM	#14
deb4air Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: new york Posts: 3,168	I am so grateful that you posted all these things about behaviors .Miss Mini has a good nature about her sometimes I can miss understand her I try hard to think of her as a little one trying to get what they want or to tell you what they want without words , seems like if i have a test of wills mine gets depleted ,The best thing Ive found so far is to talk gently ..hold gently and let her know I am the momma of this house ,some days it seems like shes just having a bad day not unlike us " So in all of this puppy "training period " I hope I am doing it right ,I know I am loving her lots . __________________ Deb and Miss Mini Last edited by deb4air; 01-25-2006 at 02:40 PM.