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Old 12-09-2014, 06:59 AM   #1
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Default Could use some serious advice. Fighting

Moka and Mylee have always been the best of friends and snuggled together. They are 7 and 5. Two months ago Mylee got sick and was at the vet's for 2 weeks. She's doing very well, gaining weight, but still appears fragile, and her personality has never really seemed the same. Since her return home the agression has been building. More and more moments of the posturing, and challenging stares, and now it has lead to full on attacks. Moka is generally the agressor, but last night Mylee clearly challenged Moka and before I could stop it they had ahold of each other's nose and wouldn't let go. It was as bad as it sounds. Mylee took a bite to the leg (no blood or broken skin but she is limping) and my husband took a bite to the finger. Moka has a small tear on her lip. I'm scheduling an appointment for Moka to check her out, but I don't think they'll find anything. She is a picture of good health. It just feels like Moka is targeting Mylee because she is "weak." I wouldn't consider either of them dominant or alpha dogs. They both submit to me quite easily. I consider myself good at knowing dogs in general, behavior, training, etc., but this is waaaaay out of my league. I am devastated by this new development. Can anyone offer any advice? How do I deal with this.
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Old 12-09-2014, 07:41 AM   #2
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I am sorry that your girls are having a real problem right now. I don't have any advise as I have never had this type of issue but am sure there are others that can offer advise.
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Old 12-09-2014, 08:16 AM   #3
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If it is a recent development ie the severity and frequency of attacks, I'd be tempted to discuss the issue with a vet and ask for a recommendation for a behaviorist. Teddy and my cat stress me when they don't get along so you have my sympathy.
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:35 AM   #4
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Search Google and read all that you can on why dogs attack sick or weaker dogs and how recognize, to deal with the issue before an attack occurs. I'd be involved in fun, rewarding obedience training my aggressor dog in daily short 2 - 5 minute fun training sessions x3 - 4 daily so she comes to recognize you as her leader, one who is always to be obeyed and who finds that doing so is highly rewarding for her, floods her with good feelings, oxytocins.

Teach her "Leave it" as a fun game so that she knows to immediately back off anytime she hears that command and that when she does, she will be instantly positively rewarded with a treat and your heavy, genuine praise, so that she'll be encouraged to quickly obey. Then should she begin to demonstrate body language that suggests she's fixating on the other dog, tell her to "leave it" and reward her lavishly when she does - a real celebration and over time, this shows her that it's far more rewarding to leave the other dog alone than to attack her from instinctive urges. Dogs can be trained out of their primal instincts.

I'd keep them separated until your weaker dog is fully recovered and back to herself, then slowly desensitize the aggressor to the weaker dog by only allowing them closely supervised, very short(2 - 3 minutes) socialization sessions, where you step and stand down the dog whose body language suggests she's fixating/alerting to the other dog and about to attack. Occas. dogs just attack without any signs so be sure you have the aggressor on a lead or wearing a soft muzzle the first few times only, then do not depend on the lead to do your work for you. Your aggressor dog needs to know that you, not the lead, have them under control. Have a blanket/heavy net handy should you need it at first.

01 Aggression: When One Dog is Sick - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:44 AM   #5
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Moka and Mylee have always been the best of friends and snuggled together. They are 7 and 5. Two months ago Mylee got sick and was at the vet's for 2 weeks. She's doing very well, gaining weight, but still appears fragile, and her personality has never really seemed the same. Since her return home the agression has been building. More and more moments of the posturing, and challenging stares, and now it has lead to full on attacks. Moka is generally the agressor, but last night Mylee clearly challenged Moka and before I could stop it they had ahold of each other's nose and wouldn't let go. It was as bad as it sounds. Mylee took a bite to the leg (no blood or broken skin but she is limping) and my husband took a bite to the finger. Moka has a small tear on her lip. I'm scheduling an appointment for Moka to check her out, but I don't think they'll find anything. She is a picture of good health. It just feels like Moka is targeting Mylee because she is "weak." I wouldn't consider either of them dominant or alpha dogs. They both submit to me quite easily. I consider myself good at knowing dogs in general, behavior, training, etc., but this is waaaaay out of my league. I am devastated by this new development. Can anyone offer any advice? How do I deal with this.
This will happen frequently in a "pack"....when one is determined to be "sick, weak, or ill", the rest of the group will often jump the weaker one.....nature's way of assuring "survivial of the fittest." This is also why some pups will not ever display sickness or pain living in a home with mone that one pet, and even sometimes when interacting with the owners. When I have a baby that is feeling out of sorts, I watch that dog very closely around the rest of the group.....in the past, there has been a couple of instances where one attacked the pup that was not 100%, and as I was running to the fight, 3 more of the others run to the fight and jumped right in on the pup that was down. If I had not been within 10 feet of this terrible encounter, they would have killed poor Rosie. From that day on, I keep my dogs isolated when one does not feel 100%.

If one had to go to the vet for several days, when I brought that baby home, I think I would bathe that dog, or do what I could to get the "vet smell" off the dog.....as well as keeping that dog separated for an additional couple of days, and back to as near normal as possible. Spray perfume on a towel, heat the towel in a dryer, then rub the dog all over with the warm, perfumed towel. That will dispell "vet office"smell. If you then throw the towel on the floor or in a dog bed, or couch, EVERYONE will rub around on the warm towel, everyone will smell the same, and peace will hopefully reign again!
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:13 AM   #6
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I'll disagree a just little bit on the vet office smell being that important a factor in dog behavior for the most part in and off itself but strange smells can certainly add to the already insecure situation of the weaker dog. In the wild or with feral dogs or where no vet office visit has ever or in the home where a vet visit has not yet occurred, weak/sick dogs are still often attacked by other pack members; and if they are too small to attack, fitter, younger pack members will often shun/ostracize a weak dog.

It's the weak dog's continued prey-like behavior or mentality/energy that triggers the urge to attack them and it's purely instinctive to most dogs, like eating their own poop, sniffing each other's butts or turning around and around before lying down. Even little toy Yorkies are still 100% canine right down to the marrow and killing off the old, weak, insecure-acting or infirm is just Nature's way of purifying the gene pool.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:41 AM   #7
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Mylee hasn't been back to the vet in 2 months, so the vet smell is irrelevant here, but I do understand how smells can be an issue. It's more that her personality since her illness has changed. Her appearance is weak and fragile and petite but she's a feisty little thing. So I think I can conclude that the attacks are happening because Moka sees Mylee as weak, and this is her opportunity to move up a spot in the pack. I always thought that if there was a more dominant one it was Moka. Has Mylee had me fooled all this time? Could Mylee be my more dominant one thus causing the friction? I read that to fix the problem you have to know who is dominant and I just don't know. I read an article I will post when I get back to work in a little while that I think defines our issue. I just don't know how to fix it.

Thanks for the replies.
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Old 12-09-2014, 11:02 AM   #8
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I have to agree with Judy on vet smell can trigger aggression. Some years back when I had my pack of 3, one of my girls was hospitalized for several days. When I went to pick her up my vet advised me to watch her closely around my other dogs. The vet said the other two may not recognize her due to her having a different scent on her, and could attack her, my vet said this could also happen if one goes to the groomer and the other two stayed home, different scent can trigger aggression. The pup that was hospitalized was my feisty one the baby of the pack, there was no issue when she came home. A year or so later one of my older girls was hospitalized for a few days, always keeping in mind what my vet told me about aggression, when I took that one home the baby of the pack went after the hospitalized girl. Reason why I agree with Judy.
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Old 12-09-2014, 11:09 AM   #9
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Here is the article, and my responses are in red.

Why Are my Two Dogs Fighting?
December 4, 2011
Liz Stelow Pet Health Canine, Dog, dominance status aggression


Two household dogs fighting can be very stressful for owners
I recently saw a very interesting case of two dogs in the household fighting with each other. The older dog is 5 years old and the owner has had him since he was 10 weeks old. The younger dog is 13 months old and has lived with the owner since he was 4 months old. According to the owner, the younger dog began to attack the older one about 4 months ago. Over a short time, the attacks increased in frequency to several times a day and were so upsetting to the owner that she explored the possibility of re-homing the younger dog. She saw our appointment as his last chance to stay in her family.

There are many reasons one dog may attack or be aggressive toward another: He may be guarding a very valuable resource (rawhide, toy, etc.) and think the other dog wants it. He may be of a breed that has been selected for dog aggression. He may have been poorly socialized to dogs. He may have had bad prior experiences with this particular dog.

But, for two dogs that live in the same house, the most common type of aggression is called “Dominance-Status Aggression” (DSA), also sometimes called “sibling rivalry.” In this setting, the dogs know each other well, and get along very well much of the time. Generally one dog is consistently the aggressor and the fights/attacks happen most commonly when the owner is present. Other possibilities for two household dogs fighting include pain/injury, illness, territorial aggression, or maternal aggression.

The highlighted parts. That's us.

So, what causes DSA and what can be done about it?

Causes of DSA.

Usually, the owner is the cause. It is over-simplistic to say this; but, the reality is that the average dog owner will often completely ignore his dogs’ social hierarchy and attempt to impose what he believes to be equitable. This leads to tension between the dogs, which then leads to aggression when the owner is present.

What does it mean for dogs to develop a hierarchy? Speaking generally, dogs have a flexible but fairly strong social structure, in which one dog is the most dominant, followed by a more subordinate dog, then the next most subordinate, and so on. If you are watching a group of dogs that know each other well, you will see which one has easiest access to the best resources (toys, treats, lounging spaces, etc.); this is typically the most dominant dog in the group. The dog that most willingly gives up resources is generally the most subordinate. The others fall in line in the middle. This is a gross generalization (and some very subordinate dogs will fight for certain resources); but the principle is reliable.

This makes sense. Moka is always first to eat, first to go outside. Mylee however will easily take a toy from Moka without incident. They both sleep wherever they want often trading spots after a few minutes. Both have been known to curl up next to me at any given time with no specific care for who is where. So how do I know who is dominant?

Unfortunately, owners have their own sense of fairness. Usually, they give the older, more frail, or most beloved dog the best of the resources and the most attention, regardless of his status in the group. This is a perfectly human thing to do. Yet, if the owner chooses to lavish attention and resources on a less dominant dog, the more dominant dog may feel compelled to put the favored dog in its place, through growling, biting, or other aggressive act. The owner, who generally responds negatively (yelling, scolding, or other form of punishment) to the aggressor, may increase his attention on the attacked dog, thus escalating the problem.

I do not recognize that I favor one over the other. Our routine is pretty set in stone as described above. Our emotions over the aggression probably are a factor as there is yelling when this is all going on.

What about two dogs that start fighting suddenly after having been “fine” with each other for months. If a younger subordinate dog is becoming socially mature or a previously-dominant dog is failing in health, there may be the opportunity for a shuffle in the dominance hierarchy. If the owner inadvertently lavishes attention on the wrong dog, there can be aggression as a result.

^^ this?

It should be noted that not all dominant dogs care enough to interfere with the owner’s interactions with the other dog.

Treatment of DSA.

Often, treatment is as simple as correctly identifying the dominant dog and supporting him as such. This is accomplished by giving him the most attention, providing him with better resources (nearer the owner on the bed or sofa, first access to the house or yard, etc.), and asking for less “work” (aka fewer commands) before giving him things. If the dominant dog has to sit for his dinner, the other dog must sit and shake paws before the food dish touches the ground. If a battle does break out, owners should leave the room, as their presence is typically required to fuel the conflict. Under no circumstances should either dog be punished for his actions.

I couldn't possibly leave the room. I'd have a very badly injured dog. But I do have to determine who is the more dominant.

If one or more of the dogs is unneutered, surgical intervention in the form of spaying or neutering can also help relieve some tension.

Owners are occasionally resistant to these changes, because they have been favoring the subordinate dog for a reason. But, when they see the difference their actions can make to the stress level in the house, they usually come around. They also get creative about spending quality time with their favored pet without the other being aware.

If my scribblings are confusing here is a link to the article.
https://petdoctormom.wordpress.com/2...dogs-fighting/
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Old 12-09-2014, 11:31 AM   #10
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Mylee hasn't been back to the vet in 2 months, so the vet smell is irrelevant here, but I do understand how smells can be an issue. It's more that her personality since her illness has changed. Her appearance is weak and fragile and petite but she's a feisty little thing. So I think I can conclude that the attacks are happening because Moka sees Mylee as weak, and this is her opportunity to move up a spot in the pack. I always thought that if there was a more dominant one it was Moka. Has Mylee had me fooled all this time? Could Mylee be my more dominant one thus causing the friction? I read that to fix the problem you have to know who is dominant and I just don't know. I read an article I will post when I get back to work in a little while that I think defines our issue. I just don't know how to fix it.

Thanks for the replies.
Mylee probably attacked that one time because she had been attacked a few times and offense is often considered the best defense by a weaker-feeling dog. This is why some dogs become fierce little things - unremitting anticipation or fear of attack by another dog. And Moka probably is just acting on instinct, trying to become pack leader or alpha dog now that the other dog is acting insecure or weak - typical dog behavior. Dogs are strictly hierarchical creatures - it's part and parcel of their canine society and they are most comfortable when there are clearly defined roles for each dog or a nice co-alpha role where there are a male/female alpha-dog leadership combo. Two females or two males rarely adapt to co-alpha roles - one usually assumes a more dominant role and the other goes along, quite happily, if the dominant one is really smart and strong - a true leader. So-so leaders sit shakily on their throne with their lesser pack members.

Research your dogs' situations. Google search for the subject of stronger dogs attacking weaker dogs. Read all you can, learn and find out the various ways to deal with this situation. There will be many and you can use the way that works best for you and your dogs.

Here is what I would you if this were my dogs:

For the time being, keep them separated while you train the one doing most of the attacking in fun, short but frequent obedience lessons, leave it and other fun commands, giving lots of positive reinforcement for getting it right. To give your little former-patient more self-confidence, she could use some things that make her feel self-confident, proud of herself for achieving something and a course in obedience training would benefit her as well. Dogs are so proud of themselves when they learn to do something new and find out we are happy with them for doing it!

Then, once both of them are better trained to obey your commands, you can allow them time in the same room with one in the crate as you funnel treats and toys into her and the other outside waiting for her "fun" turn in the crate, switch them out and in time, allow them time outside together, perhaps with the aggressor on the lead the first time or two, with you while you are watching them very closely for body language and giving commands if one gives the other a glare or "look" or assumes a very still or threatening position - that's your cue to step in, stop bad behavior and redirect their reactions, end the session for the time being until they slowly get back to acceptable behavior together. It could take up to 6 months to correct and retrain them both but putting time into your dogs is well worth it and so much fun for all of you.

Fun, rewarding obedience training is one of human's best tools for correcting all types of bad behavior and insecurities in dogs. Few believe this until they've tried it and see the magical results.
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Old 12-09-2014, 12:13 PM   #11
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Mylee probably attacked that one time because she had been attacked a few times and offense is often considered the best defense by a weaker-feeling dog. This is why some dogs become fierce little things - unremitting anticipation or fear of attack by another dog. And Moka probably is just acting on instinct, trying to become pack leader or alpha dog now that the other dog is acting insecure or weak - typical dog behavior. Dogs are strictly hierarchical creatures - it's part and parcel of their canine society and they are most comfortable when there are clearly defined roles for each dog or a nice co-alpha role where there are a male/female alpha-dog leadership combo. Two females or two males rarely adapt to co-alpha roles - one usually assumes a more dominant role and the other goes along, quite happily, if the dominant one is really smart and strong - a true leader. So-so leaders sit shakily on their throne with their lesser pack members.

Research your dogs' situations. Google search for the subject of stronger dogs attacking weaker dogs. Read all you can, learn and find out the various ways to deal with this situation. There will be many and you can use the way that works best for you and your dogs.

Here is what I would you if this were my dogs:

For the time being, keep them separated while you train the one doing most of the attacking in fun, short but frequent obedience lessons, leave it and other fun commands, giving lots of positive reinforcement for getting it right. To give your little former-patient more self-confidence, she could use some things that make her feel self-confident, proud of herself for achieving something and a course in obedience training would benefit her as well. Dogs are so proud of themselves when they learn to do something new and find out we are happy with them for doing it!

Then, once both of them are better trained to obey your commands, you can allow them time in the same room with one in the crate as you funnel treats and toys into her and the other outside waiting for her "fun" turn in the crate, switch them out and in time, allow them time outside together, perhaps with the aggressor on the lead the first time or two, with you while you are watching them very closely for body language and giving commands if one gives the other a glare or "look" or assumes a very still or threatening position - that's your cue to step in, stop bad behavior and redirect their reactions, end the session for the time being until they slowly get back to acceptable behavior together. It could take up to 6 months to correct and retrain them both but putting time into your dogs is well worth it and so much fun for all of you.

Fun, rewarding obedience training is one of human's best tools for correcting all types of bad behavior and insecurities in dogs. Few believe this until they've tried it and see the magical results.
I should be clear, Mylee challenged Moka with the hard stare. Moka then accepted and attacked. Mylee has never run across the room to get to Moka. Does that make Moka the aggressor? Also, my girls are very good at obedience. I've posted many times about how training has helped Mylee's anxiety issues. I wholeheartedly believe in training. The thing is, when I sit down with my girls to play or with treats, or do a photo setting, I have their full 100% undividied attention. They are not focused on each other. They are focused on me. I can ask anything of them without issue in that setting.
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Old 12-09-2014, 02:49 PM   #12
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Wow very interesting i have a pap 3 years old and a 8 month old yorky i jjust got 4 months ago. Like you its hard to tell who is the domanant one is. They do like yours in bed they both like the bend of my knees so one will get there then the other . That changes. Boo the yorky tho is domanate with food for sure and princess gives into this. Recently they have been going at it. Scary fighting which makes me worry what your babies have done. Wow so hard to not get involved. I think boo is becomming more posesive of me. So hard to not take up for the older dog . I feel like im betraying her if i dont protect her. But then she plays rough and will also stop boo from getting up on the bed to. Like you so whos the domanate one.. I wonder if your sick babie did not want to be bothered yet. Also maybe she felt threatened and knew she was weak so she leapped first as a warning. Which the other fought back. When boos agressive princes dont just hold back its like shes tellimg him i was here first back off. Thank GOD i have stopped them before blood was drawn. Princess is bigger than boo so afraid she will hurt him. But then most of the time they love each other its crazy.
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Old 12-09-2014, 02:55 PM   #13
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I should be clear, Mylee challenged Moka with the hard stare. Moka then accepted and attacked. Mylee has never run across the room to get to Moka. Does that make Moka the aggressor? Also, my girls are very good at obedience. I've posted many times about how training has helped Mylee's anxiety issues. I wholeheartedly believe in training. The thing is, when I sit down with my girls to play or with treats, or do a photo setting, I have their full 100% undividied attention. They are not focused on each other. They are focused on me. I can ask anything of them without issue in that setting.
I'd surmise, without actually being there to experience them, their personalities and interactions, and see them prior to the fight, I'd extend an educated guess that Mylee, weakened physically and psychologically from her long sickness and period away from the house, insecure now, gave the stare to Moka as a warning to back off, "don't keep attacking me". That was your cue to quickly step in, back Mylee and then Moka off in a non-threatening or scary way, stand them down until they each give in, move away from each other as you stand there like a cigar store Indian, intent on having your way as ultimate leader of the pack, no matter how long you must stand there and stare back at them, using your hands in the outstretched "Stop/stay" position to show you mean business.

The moment they break off and move away, you matter-of-factly walk away, thus teaching them after a time or two that giving in and giving up gets a quick reduction in the tension - which is what dogs want during a stand down. But for the next few weeks, I'd go ahead and separate them at that time, matter-of-factly(no anger or frustration in you - this is a "teachable moment") putting one or both where they can't access one another until they are completely over the spat and offering each a Kong or something to distract them as a reward for giving in to your wishes. In time they will learn to back off sooner for their ultimate reward.

But going back to the Mylee's stare, instead of any intervention to stop the warning that became an escalation, Moka, sensing no leader was going to police them, met the stare as a dare or invitation for a round-house rather than comply with Mylee's probable warning to stay away. Yes, dogs misread each other's intent all the time. Still, it's possible Mylee could be trying to overcompensate for her feelings of inadequacy/insecurity from the illness, bringing out her dominant/defensive-aggressive side of your normally calm, submissive little girl dog to meet what she recognizes as her packmate's recognition of her illness/personality change and the resultant instinct to dominate/rule her with physical attacks. That's why you must police them closely to quickly recognize and stop those escalations prior to attack and show them what behavior is required of them by their loving leader.

Monitoring these two's social interactions for the next two months or more and stopping/preventing unwanted behavior is now your job until they learn to police themselves and co-exist. Returning to life as it was pre-illness might not happen so be prepared for that possibility - sometimes dogs never return to their previous copacetic existence, though most do, given even-handed leadership and well-enforced boundaries. Never, ever be too far away from them to quickly intervene and stop stares, stock-still, intent bodies and high-held tails, standing/leaning forward on their toes, tense lips. As long as they are back on their feet, relaxed, lips and bodies loose and have soft eyes and ears, you can stay put and just observe.

Keep up the regular, several-session obedience training, teaching them newer and harder things so they have to work their brains, really concentrate and apply themselves to learning and doing the new commands and tricks. Dogs who've done obedience have to have their daily lessons or life isn't as fulfilling and they look for other things to get into sometimes. Both dogs could use more work during this time of relationship flux. Increased outside walks, exercise, puzzle games and obedience training for short, short, frequent sessions can keep an otherwise troubled dog in an unsettled situation physically and mentally challenged, satisfied and feeling good about himself, despite life and circumstance changes going on within his little pack.
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Old 12-09-2014, 03:44 PM   #14
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P. S. For what it's worth, dogs give hard stares frequently during their day's activities to threaten or warn other dogs from getting too near them or their resources and most dogs receive it as intended and back off. It's like someone saying to you, "Back off, leave me alone". You do. We all do - unless we have a bad problem brewing with that person telling us that. Then the slightest thing might set us off, cause us to over-react.

Usually, only an overstimulated, highly-excited, easily triggered or dominant/aggressive dog will attack on a warning stare alone. But that's what your Moka likely sees as his instinctive role right now - to over and over render the weaker dog to that of a servile role. Right now, to me, it's the dog that follows through to actually approach the space of and attack another dog after a warn-off that needs the most help, relief and work, not the one sending the warning. However, stepping in when you see early triggers/body language is imperative.
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Old 12-09-2014, 03:57 PM   #15
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I hope you get it figured out. My daughters two dogs started this after one was three and one was six It got so bad they were actually hurting each other. We tried everything one was neutered and one was not. Neutered the one hoping that would work. But it didn't. I think we tried everything. The vet suggested. We tried scents we tried a mild drug we tried the attention thing. Like you we feel are dogs listen well and are very trainable. Needless to say I took one of them. They get along well with all the other dogs just not each other. To this day when my daughter comes to visit we have to take turns with them running with the others. The minute they get to close to each other they start growling. And it's been 3 years since they have lived together I do not understand it at all. We have dealt with two different vets on the matter. Besides reading everything we could and then trying it. We have accepted it and keep them apart. I sure hope Mylee and Moka do not get to that point. But when our two fought someone and usually both were bleeding that's how bad it got. Sorry I have no good advice.
We have the occasional bullying around here with the three of them but nothing even close to how the two would go at it. And usually a stern voice they will knock it off And never bite are draw blood. Good luck and keep us posted on how there doing and any tricks you learn along the way.
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