I AM SO FRUSTRATED!! Trying to Crate/Potty training... - YorkieTalk.com Forums

FunkyMunkie · 03-15-2005, 01:03 PM

it's not EASY! at least for us!

Luna is now approaching 7 months of age. I'm not sure I am understanding her when it comes to potty or if she just doesn't understand the process completely. Let me explain...

When we use to take Luna outside to potty she would immediately go pee, and even pee more than once after her initial pee. Sometimes she'd go poo first then pee...the point is that she knew that when we walked her she'd have to go potty. It never failed that the first thing she'd do when outside was go potty, BUT! she didn't understand that potty was to be done ONLY OUTSIDE! so, to our surprise, we'd find accidents later on during the day or even the next day.

I'm not sure if any of you remember but because Luna would go potty outside just as much as she'd go outside, we began to crate train Luna about 2 weeks ago. If we leave her alone in her confined area with her crate open, she ALWAYS uses her wee wee pads to go poo and pee, it never fails. She also never has gone potty in her crate, holds it perfectly through the night. BUT when we let her to play, she'll get lost and of course by the time we find her she's gone poo or pee on the floor or carpet.

So, as you can see, we're basically facing the same problem that we faced with when using outside to go potty.

Am I doing something wrong? Are we not suppose to let Luna play alone with her toys? I ask that because often we'll go on the computer and gate off the entrance to the computer room and let her run around with her toys, she loves it. However, she will go potty if we don't keep a careful eye on her.

Please be honest and let me know what you feel I may be doing wrong, or advise me on what I should do. I'm also not sure of how strict we should be with Luna. She is our first dog and really don't know much about "discipline"...

P.S. Sorry if this posts seems so confusing but I'm so frustrated that I really don't know what to do, I feel helpless towards the potty training...everything else Luna has impressed me beyond belief!Oh and I'm also so sorry if this subject has already been adressed, I just wanted to personalize it so that you all can critique me and tell me if it's me...or what...

fasteddie · 03-15-2005, 01:26 PM

It's certainly not easy to pee and potty train, and it takes a lot of patience and time for it to all work out. Lemme ask you this, what do you do when you DO find Luna boo-booed inside the house? Do you give her a stern NO, or do you just ignore it, or how do you approach it. The reason I ask is because if you make it seem like it's not a big deal to you, then it won't be a big deal to her, and she just thinks everything is fine. What we did when we saw Yoda peed or pooed inside was we would quarantine him on a kitchen counter (with a pillow) and leave him there for maybe 20-30 minutes. He really didn't like that, but we thought it was a fair punishment for him. He would just lay there and sulk and maybe bark, but as he got this punishment everytime he did something wrong, he did learn and did it less and less.

FunkyMunkie · 03-15-2005, 01:57 PM

Thank you FastEddie for your prompt response!

Here's the thing, sometimes we don't catch the accident until hours or a day later... is that ok? or how should I take charge of this? are we suppose to keep her on a strict routine? if so, do tell me what a strict rountine would look like.

I'm not sure how much is fair to leave her crated or how long we should play with her. I'm so afraid that we don't play with her enough, or that we let her play too much... another thing is that since her teeth fell out she was having trouble getting back to the dry/hard food, so that messed up her potty schedule big time.

thanks again!

dollymix · 03-15-2005, 02:14 PM

Hi, my yorkie is coming up to 8 mths, and she has been fully housetrained from about 5 mths. I have never crate trained her or pee pad trained her, i simply took her outide every half hour in the early days, then at 3 mths taught her to go through a catflap.
When you catch her in the act, then give her a clear no, pick her up and take her outside, if you find something and not caught her in the act, just simply clear the mess up.
If you tell her off for something you havent caught her do, then she wont know why your telling her off.
I also taught her to pee on demand, again in the early days when she pee'd outside, id say wee wee to her, everytime she peed i said this, so now i can take her outside, say wee wee, and she does her business (she does the same for poop!) especially useful for knowing she has had a pee before bedtime

Also is best to be careful, as if you scold them too much when they are toileting, they may start associating the two together, so she could go off and hide to do her business.

Wash any accidents with biological washing powder, as this takes the smell away.....if they can smell there toilet they will think that is where to go

Hope this helps, its worked for me, but then all yorkies are different

FunkyMunkie · 03-15-2005, 03:18 PM

ahhhh!

lol, ok, I truly appreciate all of your suggestions. I always say "get busy" with Luna, but sometimes she just doesn't want to go. It is essential for us to get her paper trained because we forget, yes we are very much ADDers here, so she has accidents inside the house that we aren't aware of... I will correct her when she is making a potty where she isn't but I'm so afraid that it will scare her and then she won't go at all. Actually I did correct her once when she was going poo inside the house and placed her over her pads and she didn't go... so I dunno... I guess patience and consistency we'll get us through? I'm just frustrated...!

orinskye · 03-15-2005, 04:07 PM

dolly mix, i have to disagree......... i tried taht approach of ignoring it if i didnt see him do it and i must say that it didnt work at all. So, i yelled at him if i saw him do it or not, he knew exactly what he did wrong and he knew he was in trouble, i had him trained to about 40% with your approach, and when i started to get mad at him EVERY TIME he had an accident (even if i didnt see it) he is now 99% trained!!!! 7 months is a little older and i should think she would know exactly what you are punishing her for when she has an accident..... BUt, part of it is trial and error, try different things and do what works for you

schatzie · 03-15-2005, 04:42 PM

Hang in there and don't beat yourself up too hard...It will get better.

FunkyMunkie · 03-15-2005, 04:56 PM

Lol!

I Really Hope Soooooo!

Ringo · 03-15-2005, 05:38 PM

Funky....

I feed my puppy on a schedule.....so he usually poops on a schedule. I will keep him close by and I will even keep him on a leash while in the house if I know he hasn't peed or pooped in a while. He won't do "his business" in front of me...so the leash helps him learn control. If he does have an accident he usually hides while doing it....so, this right there tells me he knows he's not supposed to do it in the house. Now I am working on teaching him to signal me when he needs to go out. I take him out A LOT so that his chances of having an accident are small. A cat flap sounds like a great idea!

iheartyorkies · 03-15-2005, 07:56 PM

Funkymunkie, I'm right there with ya honey!! Except Bo is only 5 months old. But he gets SO DISTRACTED outside. Either something scares him or he sees a bird to play with or a stick to chew etc, etc, etc, etc!!!!! So then after I've walked him around the house about 3 times, kept him from munching on rabbit poop, and pulled a leaf out of his mouth, I figure he doesn't have to go. We go back in and as soon as I'm distracted with something else there he goes! The trail is quite often "cold" by the time I find it. The weird thing is I know he knows it's wrong and he knows how to communicate with me. He'll run up and BARK to go out, AND PLAY!!! UUUUUUGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

FunkyMunkie · 03-15-2005, 08:21 PM

I wish I had the time and patience to just have Luna by my side 24/7...but I go to school and so obviously I'm not home. The family works till 6pm... Luna stays home alone till I get home from school at around 1 or 3 depending on the day. I'm going to try the best I can to figure out a schedule with her feeding. The problem is that she hardly eats, I guess she got use to the soft food so she isn't too fanatical about the dry food still... but I'm trying not to give into it and I continue to give her dry hard food...

I keep reminding myself to be patient, I am hoping that after she is spayed which is on Monday the 21st, things will be easier...but I really have no idea how it is after that, and if their mood is affected...but that's a post I will make a little later on...like tomorrow...lol

Ringo · 03-16-2005, 04:26 AM

Funky....

Are you still confining her in an area with an open crate when you're not home? If so, and she's using the pee pads while you are gone through the day then that's wonderful. If she's not going in her crate at night then that's great, also. Now, if you're letting her run around in the house while you're not home, then she's definitely going to use the bathroom on the floors. When you get home from school is when you need to watch her like a hawk. I know it's hard, but that's the only way it will work. If you can't keep a constant watch on her, then put her in her area that you made OR put her on a leash and take her every where with you in the house. After my pup does his business outside is when he has free run of the room that I'm in. I think he finally got the message.

My pup started peeing on command ONLY when I started giving him treats. Those treats made the difference in his training. Also, one more thing about the leash. I hardly have to do that anymore. When I do use it like when I'm cooking and I want him where I can see him. I wrap the leash around a doorknob.

The thing is this, once they start going in the house and it's not cleaned up with a neutralizer then the smell is always there and it sets them off. You may need to get a steam cleaner and use Nature's Miracle as the cleaning solution. Don't ask me how to do that, but one other member mentioned it once.

Good luck...I know how tough it is, BUT you have 2 things going for you. She doesn't go in her area or her crate. That's a big plus! My pup is not completely housebroken either but I feel like it's going to happen. Well, I hope!

Ringo · 03-16-2005, 05:19 AM

Iheart......

Have you tried treats? I know some people oppose it, but it worked for me. Now, that he's got the command down I keep him guessing. Sometimes he gets one and sometimes he doesn't........and sometimes when he does something really great that I have been trying to train him then he gets a "jackpot". I learned this in clicker training class. "Jackpots" are like the jackpots on the slot machines. They pay off big with lots of treats as the reward. Dogs get just as excited about big rewards.

Ringo · 03-16-2005, 05:24 AM

You could also try the suggestions in the links below. Maybe Luna is holding off from doing it outside because she knows as soon as she does she has to go back in the house? I'm not saying that's the case because I don't know if you let her stay out after she does her business. She could be holding out so she can stay outside longer.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...tytraining.htm

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001b/bell.htm

FunkyMunkie · 03-16-2005, 02:31 PM

Ringo your advice has helped me a lot!

Luna is great about going where she should go, she would always and still does immediately go when taken outside, and always use her pee pads when confined aloned. Yes, I do leave her in her area or crate when we aren't home. I will never let her roam the house alone, not only because she may have some accidents but also for her safety.

Remember, the reason why I switched from taking her outside was because we would forget to walk her often, so she would go inside and we wouldn't realize it till much later. Now with the wee wee pads she goes on them when in her confined area BUT (my biggest problem!!) if we don't redirect her with enough time, she will go inside, anywhere.

I'm taking all of your suggestions and trying so very hard to do my best by taking what I can to make this modified to work best for Luna and I.

I must tell you something. Today, I noticed that Luna doesn't eat alone. I realized that it's not necessarily the dry food, because I placed some in my hand and she will eat right out of it, but when I leave it in the bowl, even if I'm next to her, she will not eat it. For today I sat with her through her lunch and fed her... I'm trying to see if it's the bowl she doesn't like or she just really wants to be fed. I really hope I don't baby her into this because there will be times where I probably cannot do that. But I felt so bad for her because she really hasn't been eating much lately, today she hadnt had anything for breakfast or last night's dinner. Either way, the point I wanted to make is that as I finished feeding her, I told her to "get busy" and pointed to her pee pads. She went on them, but started to whimper a little as if she wanted something. I was so confused, I couldn't tell what she wanted. Then she stood in front of the shower glass and did the same thing...as soon as I opened it she started sniffing like crazy!! So I took the moment and put the pee pad inside and there she went!! Pee and Poo!! then TREATS AND PRAISES followed!!

Now, I don't want to count my victories but I'm going to try this technique every afternoon. Slowly showing her that she has to eat, then potty, then play. I may try the leashing technique for the night time where I'm most busy doing school work...other times when I'm just relaxing I gate off the computer room area and let her run around with her toys (of course with me in the room). She absolutely loves it, because she jumps on the couch and throws her toys from the couch down and starts to "hunt" them...it's adorable! Funniest is when she looses a toy and finds that it's stuck in between the couch...she starts to bark our of frustration because she cant get it...

anyhow, I will contain myself from speaking anymore...LOL I'm on a rolll...

03-15-2005, 01:03 PM	#1
FunkyMunkie Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 221	I AM SO FRUSTRATED!! Trying to Crate/Potty training... it's not EASY! at least for us! Luna is now approaching 7 months of age. I'm not sure I am understanding her when it comes to potty or if she just doesn't understand the process completely. Let me explain... When we use to take Luna outside to potty she would immediately go pee, and even pee more than once after her initial pee. Sometimes she'd go poo first then pee...the point is that she knew that when we walked her she'd have to go potty. It never failed that the first thing she'd do when outside was go potty, BUT! she didn't understand that potty was to be done ONLY OUTSIDE! so, to our surprise, we'd find accidents later on during the day or even the next day. I'm not sure if any of you remember but because Luna would go potty outside just as much as she'd go outside, we began to crate train Luna about 2 weeks ago. If we leave her alone in her confined area with her crate open, she ALWAYS uses her wee wee pads to go poo and pee, it never fails. She also never has gone potty in her crate, holds it perfectly through the night. BUT when we let her to play, she'll get lost and of course by the time we find her she's gone poo or pee on the floor or carpet. So, as you can see, we're basically facing the same problem that we faced with when using outside to go potty. Am I doing something wrong? Are we not suppose to let Luna play alone with her toys? I ask that because often we'll go on the computer and gate off the entrance to the computer room and let her run around with her toys, she loves it. However, she will go potty if we don't keep a careful eye on her. Please be honest and let me know what you feel I may be doing wrong, or advise me on what I should do. I'm also not sure of how strict we should be with Luna. She is our first dog and really don't know much about "discipline"... P.S. Sorry if this posts seems so confusing but I'm so frustrated that I really don't know what to do, I feel helpless towards the potty training...everything else Luna has impressed me beyond belief!Oh and I'm also so sorry if this subject has already been adressed, I just wanted to personalize it so that you all can critique me and tell me if it's me...or what... __________________ Melissa

03-15-2005, 01:57 PM	#3
FunkyMunkie Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 221	Thank you FastEddie for your prompt response! Here's the thing, sometimes we don't catch the accident until hours or a day later... is that ok? or how should I take charge of this? are we suppose to keep her on a strict routine? if so, do tell me what a strict rountine would look like. I'm not sure how much is fair to leave her crated or how long we should play with her. I'm so afraid that we don't play with her enough, or that we let her play too much... another thing is that since her teeth fell out she was having trouble getting back to the dry/hard food, so that messed up her potty schedule big time. thanks again! __________________ Melissa

03-15-2005, 03:18 PM	#5
FunkyMunkie Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 221	ahhhh! lol, ok, I truly appreciate all of your suggestions. I always say "get busy" with Luna, but sometimes she just doesn't want to go. It is essential for us to get her paper trained because we forget, yes we are very much ADDers here, so she has accidents inside the house that we aren't aware of... I will correct her when she is making a potty where she isn't but I'm so afraid that it will scare her and then she won't go at all. Actually I did correct her once when she was going poo inside the house and placed her over her pads and she didn't go... so I dunno... I guess patience and consistency we'll get us through? I'm just frustrated...! __________________ Melissa

03-15-2005, 04:42 PM	#7
schatzie *Moderator Emeritus* Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Tontitown Arkansas Posts: 4,909	Hang in there and don't beat yourself up too hard...It will get better. __________________ ~~~~ Schatzie and Ransom ~~~~

03-15-2005, 04:56 PM	#8
FunkyMunkie Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 221	Lol! I Really Hope Soooooo! __________________ Melissa

03-15-2005, 01:26 PM	#2
fasteddie *YT 6000 Club Member* Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 6,238	It's certainly not easy to pee and potty train, and it takes a lot of patience and time for it to all work out. Lemme ask you this, what do you do when you DO find Luna boo-booed inside the house? Do you give her a stern NO, or do you just ignore it, or how do you approach it. The reason I ask is because if you make it seem like it's not a big deal to you, then it won't be a big deal to her, and she just thinks everything is fine. What we did when we saw Yoda peed or pooed inside was we would quarantine him on a kitchen counter (with a pillow) and leave him there for maybe 20-30 minutes. He really didn't like that, but we thought it was a fair punishment for him. He would just lay there and sulk and maybe bark, but as he got this punishment everytime he did something wrong, he did learn and did it less and less.

03-15-2005, 02:14 PM	#4
dollymix Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Walsall, United Kingdom Posts: 44	Hi, my yorkie is coming up to 8 mths, and she has been fully housetrained from about 5 mths. I have never crate trained her or pee pad trained her, i simply took her outide every half hour in the early days, then at 3 mths taught her to go through a catflap. When you catch her in the act, then give her a clear no, pick her up and take her outside, if you find something and not caught her in the act, just simply clear the mess up. If you tell her off for something you havent caught her do, then she wont know why your telling her off. I also taught her to pee on demand, again in the early days when she pee'd outside, id say wee wee to her, everytime she peed i said this, so now i can take her outside, say wee wee, and she does her business (she does the same for poop!) especially useful for knowing she has had a pee before bedtime Also is best to be careful, as if you scold them too much when they are toileting, they may start associating the two together, so she could go off and hide to do her business. Wash any accidents with biological washing powder, as this takes the smell away.....if they can smell there toilet they will think that is where to go Hope this helps, its worked for me, but then all yorkies are different

03-15-2005, 04:07 PM	#6
orinskye YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,990	dolly mix, i have to disagree......... i tried taht approach of ignoring it if i didnt see him do it and i must say that it didnt work at all. So, i yelled at him if i saw him do it or not, he knew exactly what he did wrong and he knew he was in trouble, i had him trained to about 40% with your approach, and when i started to get mad at him EVERY TIME he had an accident (even if i didnt see it) he is now 99% trained!!!! 7 months is a little older and i should think she would know exactly what you are punishing her for when she has an accident..... BUt, part of it is trial and error, try different things and do what works for you

03-15-2005, 05:38 PM	#9
Ringo Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 193	Funky.... I feed my puppy on a schedule.....so he usually poops on a schedule. I will keep him close by and I will even keep him on a leash while in the house if I know he hasn't peed or pooped in a while. He won't do "his business" in front of me...so the leash helps him learn control. If he does have an accident he usually hides while doing it....so, this right there tells me he knows he's not supposed to do it in the house. Now I am working on teaching him to signal me when he needs to go out. I take him out A LOT so that his chances of having an accident are small. A cat flap sounds like a great idea!

03-15-2005, 07:56 PM	#10
iheartyorkies Boppin' Bo! Donating Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,719	Funkymunkie, I'm right there with ya honey!! Except Bo is only 5 months old. But he gets SO DISTRACTED outside. Either something scares him or he sees a bird to play with or a stick to chew etc, etc, etc, etc!!!!! So then after I've walked him around the house about 3 times, kept him from munching on rabbit poop, and pulled a leaf out of his mouth, I figure he doesn't have to go. We go back in and as soon as I'm distracted with something else there he goes! The trail is quite often "cold" by the time I find it. The weird thing is I know he knows it's wrong and he knows how to communicate with me. He'll run up and BARK to go out, AND PLAY!!! UUUUUUGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!! __________________ ~~~ i yorkies ~~~ Cynthia Turbo and Suri!

03-15-2005, 08:21 PM	#11
FunkyMunkie Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 221	I wish I had the time and patience to just have Luna by my side 24/7...but I go to school and so obviously I'm not home. The family works till 6pm... Luna stays home alone till I get home from school at around 1 or 3 depending on the day. I'm going to try the best I can to figure out a schedule with her feeding. The problem is that she hardly eats, I guess she got use to the soft food so she isn't too fanatical about the dry food still... but I'm trying not to give into it and I continue to give her dry hard food... I keep reminding myself to be patient, I am hoping that after she is spayed which is on Monday the 21st, things will be easier...but I really have no idea how it is after that, and if their mood is affected...but that's a post I will make a little later on...like tomorrow...lol __________________ Melissa

03-16-2005, 04:26 AM	#12
Ringo Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 193	Funky.... Are you still confining her in an area with an open crate when you're not home? If so, and she's using the pee pads while you are gone through the day then that's wonderful. If she's not going in her crate at night then that's great, also. Now, if you're letting her run around in the house while you're not home, then she's definitely going to use the bathroom on the floors. When you get home from school is when you need to watch her like a hawk. I know it's hard, but that's the only way it will work. If you can't keep a constant watch on her, then put her in her area that you made OR put her on a leash and take her every where with you in the house. After my pup does his business outside is when he has free run of the room that I'm in. I think he finally got the message. My pup started peeing on command ONLY when I started giving him treats. Those treats made the difference in his training. Also, one more thing about the leash. I hardly have to do that anymore. When I do use it like when I'm cooking and I want him where I can see him. I wrap the leash around a doorknob. The thing is this, once they start going in the house and it's not cleaned up with a neutralizer then the smell is always there and it sets them off. You may need to get a steam cleaner and use Nature's Miracle as the cleaning solution. Don't ask me how to do that, but one other member mentioned it once. Good luck...I know how tough it is, BUT you have 2 things going for you. She doesn't go in her area or her crate. That's a big plus! My pup is not completely housebroken either but I feel like it's going to happen. Well, I hope! Last edited by Ringo; 03-16-2005 at 04:31 AM.

03-16-2005, 05:19 AM	#13
Ringo Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 193	Iheart...... Have you tried treats? I know some people oppose it, but it worked for me. Now, that he's got the command down I keep him guessing. Sometimes he gets one and sometimes he doesn't........and sometimes when he does something really great that I have been trying to train him then he gets a "jackpot". I learned this in clicker training class. "Jackpots" are like the jackpots on the slot machines. They pay off big with lots of treats as the reward. Dogs get just as excited about big rewards.

03-16-2005, 05:24 AM	#14
Ringo Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 193	You could also try the suggestions in the links below. Maybe Luna is holding off from doing it outside because she knows as soon as she does she has to go back in the house? I'm not saying that's the case because I don't know if you let her stay out after she does her business. She could be holding out so she can stay outside longer. http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...tytraining.htm http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001b/bell.htm

03-16-2005, 02:31 PM	#15
FunkyMunkie Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 221	Ringo your advice has helped me a lot! Luna is great about going where she should go, she would always and still does immediately go when taken outside, and always use her pee pads when confined aloned. Yes, I do leave her in her area or crate when we aren't home. I will never let her roam the house alone, not only because she may have some accidents but also for her safety. Remember, the reason why I switched from taking her outside was because we would forget to walk her often, so she would go inside and we wouldn't realize it till much later. Now with the wee wee pads she goes on them when in her confined area BUT (my biggest problem!!) if we don't redirect her with enough time, she will go inside, anywhere. I'm taking all of your suggestions and trying so very hard to do my best by taking what I can to make this modified to work best for Luna and I. I must tell you something. Today, I noticed that Luna doesn't eat alone. I realized that it's not necessarily the dry food, because I placed some in my hand and she will eat right out of it, but when I leave it in the bowl, even if I'm next to her, she will not eat it. For today I sat with her through her lunch and fed her... I'm trying to see if it's the bowl she doesn't like or she just really wants to be fed. I really hope I don't baby her into this because there will be times where I probably cannot do that. But I felt so bad for her because she really hasn't been eating much lately, today she hadnt had anything for breakfast or last night's dinner. Either way, the point I wanted to make is that as I finished feeding her, I told her to "get busy" and pointed to her pee pads. She went on them, but started to whimper a little as if she wanted something. I was so confused, I couldn't tell what she wanted. Then she stood in front of the shower glass and did the same thing...as soon as I opened it she started sniffing like crazy!! So I took the moment and put the pee pad inside and there she went!! Pee and Poo!! then TREATS AND PRAISES followed!! Now, I don't want to count my victories but I'm going to try this technique every afternoon. Slowly showing her that she has to eat, then potty, then play. I may try the leashing technique for the night time where I'm most busy doing school work...other times when I'm just relaxing I gate off the computer room area and let her run around with her toys (of course with me in the room). She absolutely loves it, because she jumps on the couch and throws her toys from the couch down and starts to "hunt" them...it's adorable! Funniest is when she looses a toy and finds that it's stuck in between the couch...she starts to bark our of frustration because she cant get it... anyhow, I will contain myself from speaking anymore...LOL I'm on a rolll... __________________ Melissa