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Old 08-03-2013, 07:32 AM   #1
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Unhappy Why does my pup isolate herself from the pack?

I have 3 dogs...2 teenagers (one boy, one girl) & a 6 month old puppy who has been home for 2 months. My two teens are extremely bonded. They grew up together. They've accepted the new puppy with open arms, but they're still both the best of buddies & they're still definitely a team.

For the past few weeks, my teen girl has been isolating herself from the other two. Some examples:

She waits for the other two to finish eating before she approaches her food bowl. Sometimes I'll have to coax her by hand feeding. I've even had to move her food bowl to another room where she eats solo. She's NEVER been like this before & is typically a little piggy. They usually all eat together like a pack.

She ignores treats. She won't accept a treat during daily activites. She won't take treats during daily training time. Today during training, she stayed on the coach next to me while the other two were on the floor in front of me. Sometimes, she doesn't even want to participate in the session at all.

Now that I think about it, she seems to isolate herself around food/treats only. She takes walks with the pack like she normally has, plays normally & sleeps in her same spot with the other two right next to her.

Any idea why she would start acting like this? I'm perplexed.
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Old 08-03-2013, 07:47 AM   #2
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How old is she? What food does she eat and what treats?
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:01 AM   #3
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The older pack is likely sending her signals to keep her in her place and earn her right into the pack and she is likely being obedient to those signals. Once she's earned her place, if she ever does, then she can feel free to step up and become a full-fledged pack member. The others sense she's young and impressionable, immature, and some older dogs are not that thrilled to have a younger dog around. When she was a younger puppy, likely she was accepted as one and not given signals to know her place as a pack member - just accepted as a baby and nurtured to her older age. Now the pack is asserting rules.

She may just not care for those type treats anymore. Tibbe recently browned off his treats and I had to find another way to fix them so he'd want them again.

Alternatively, she may be sensing her role as an underling in the hierarchy of the pack is to wait until she is cleared or at ease enough to eat when she is in their presence and I wouldn't try to interfere with pack inner-workings. Some dogs are so dominant through subtle signals and sometimes not so subtle signals that subservient dogs just won't eat in their presence at all unless literally starving to death. Dogs usually work it out and one day when you pup is older, she may assert authority over the other two or stay submissive to them. Unless she is fearful, nervous and bullied by them, leading a miserable life due to attacks and not being allowed to eat/drink/move about, I would allow them permission to work it all out and allow her to fit in with the others naturally. As she matures, things could materially change.

Google Pack Hierarchy and read all about how packs can work with domesticated dogs.
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:04 AM   #4
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The older pack is likely sending her signals to keep her in her place and earn her right into the pack and she is likely being obedient to those signals. Once she's earned her place, if she ever does, then she can feel free to step up and become a full-fledged pack member. The others sense she's young and impressionable, immature, and some older dogs are not that thrilled to have a younger dog around.

She may just not care for those type treats anymore. Tibbe recently browned off his treats and I had to find another way to fix them so he'd want them again.

Alternatively, she may be sensing her role as an underling in the hierarchy of the pack is to wait until she is cleared or at ease enough to eat when she is in their presence and I wouldn't try to interfere with pack inner-workings. Some dogs are so dominant through subtle signals and sometimes not so subtle signals that subservient dogs just won't eat in their presence at all unless literally starving to death. Dogs usually work it out and one day when you pup is older, she may assert authority over the other two or stay submissive to them. Unless she is fearful, nervous and bullied by them, leading a miserable life due to attacks and not being allowed to eat/drink/move about, I would allow them permission to work it all out and allow her to fit in with the others naturally. As she matures, things could materially change.

Google Pack Hierarchy and read all about how packs can work with domesticated dogs.
I believe the older girl is the one with the problem, not the puppy...
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:18 AM   #5
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I believe the older girl is the one with the problem, not the puppy...
Sorry, mis-read it.

Then just re-adjust which one is subservient or ill. If this is a dog who has fitted in before now, she could be feeling bad and needs a vet check-up to be sure she hasn't occult illness, dental pain, etc.

Likely the other teen and the pup are now a pack/team and they are using their leadership qualities or leader-nurturing-puppy roles to tell the third dog what her place is in the pack for the present. Pack dynamics are usually directed by the most assertive, dominant dogs, the smartest, healthiest and wisest are acknowledged by the others as leaders and the other pack members of lesser abilities in leadership or skills will give place to the one dog or pair that step into the alpha dog roll(s). If there are two alphas, they are almost always a male and female or a leader of either sex with a yearling in tow. Usually the younger dogs are the more subservient but if the pup is now bonded with an older dog, that pup is still being puppy-nurtured or is a strong dog that is becoming almost an equal to the older, teen dog.

It may stay this way for a while or forever, depending on the health and characteristics of the 3 dogs involved. It could be your other two sense the third dog is ill in some way and keeping her at a distance, as some packs will do. I would get the isolated one vet checked from dentals to back problems to everything else, blood work, heartworm, the works - even if the last check-up was just a month ago - that dog needs a health check to be certain she hasn't broken a tooth or having an abscess, having pain from some unknown source, etc. If she's healthy, change treats and just watch how things go for the next few months and see what happens. Sometimes adding an extra dog can rock the stability of a pack in many ways in some packs while in others, they hardly miss a beat.
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:50 AM   #6
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How old is she? What food does she eat and what treats?
She (Momo) is 1 year & 3 months old. Yoshi is 1 year & 7 months. Prima is 6 months. She eats a variety of treats...mostly diced chicken breast, dehydrated liver, frozen peas, cheese & Cheerios. I feed Orijen Regional Red & Ziwipeak. They have one raw meal a day at dinner.
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Old 08-03-2013, 09:10 AM   #7
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Sorry, mis-read it.

Then just re-adjust which one is subservient or ill. If this is a dog who has fitted in before now, she could be feeling bad and needs a vet check-up to be sure she hasn't occult illness, dental pain, etc.

Likely the other teen and the pup are now a pack/team and they are using their leadership qualities or leader-nurturing-puppy roles to tell the third dog what her place is in the pack for the present. Pack dynamics are usually directed by the most assertive, dominant dogs, the smartest, healthiest and wisest are acknowledged by the others as leaders and the other pack members of lesser abilities in leadership or skills will give place to the one dog or pair that step into the alpha dog roll(s). If there are two alphas, they are almost always a male and female or a leader of either sex with a yearling in tow. Usually the younger dogs are the more subservient but if the pup is now bonded with an older dog, that pup is still being puppy-nurtured or is a strong dog that is becoming almost an equal to the older, teen dog.

It may stay this way for a while or forever, depending on the health and characteristics of the 3 dogs involved. It could be your other two sense the third dog is ill in some way and keeping her at a distance, as some packs will do. I would get the isolated one vet checked from dentals to back problems to everything else, blood work, heartworm, the works - even if the last check-up was just a month ago - that dog needs a health check to be certain she hasn't broken a tooth or having an abscess, having pain from some unknown source, etc. If she's healthy, change treats and just watch how things go for the next few months and see what happens. Sometimes adding an extra dog can rock the stability of a pack in many ways in some packs while in others, they hardly miss a beat.
Recently, I haven't really been able to determine my alpha. Before the puppy arrived two months ago, it was definitely Yoshi (older male). But lately, Yoshi & Momo (the girl with the issue) are somewhat of a "team". The puppy (Prima) definitely follows their lead. In fact, Yoshi & Momo are on the couch snuggled up next to each other taking a nap right now. Prima is on the couch with them, but not snuggled in. She's off to the side a little. They usually sleep that way. Yoshi & Momo are shoulder to shoulder during walks, while Prima is behind them. I wouldn't say that Momo is being shunned by the other two. Momo is the one isolating herself. When I wrote the first post in this thread & tried to come up with examples of when she does this, I realized that it's mainly during mealtime & treat time. I've been watching them today to see if it happens any other times. So far, no.

Maybe Momo is feeling ill. She doesn't seem any different physically, so I never considered that. It could be that she has a tooth issue since she seems to withdraw herself when food is involved. I'll definitely make an appointment for her for Monday. Thank you for that advice!!

Other than being ill, would there be any other reason that a dog would withdraw from the pack when food is present?
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:16 AM   #8
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Recently, I haven't really been able to determine my alpha. Before the puppy arrived two months ago, it was definitely Yoshi (older male). But lately, Yoshi & Momo (the girl with the issue) are somewhat of a "team". The puppy (Prima) definitely follows their lead. In fact, Yoshi & Momo are on the couch snuggled up next to each other taking a nap right now. Prima is on the couch with them, but not snuggled in. She's off to the side a little. They usually sleep that way. Yoshi & Momo are shoulder to shoulder during walks, while Prima is behind them. I wouldn't say that Momo is being shunned by the other two. Momo is the one isolating herself. When I wrote the first post in this thread & tried to come up with examples of when she does this, I realized that it's mainly during mealtime & treat time. I've been watching them today to see if it happens any other times. So far, no.

Maybe Momo is feeling ill. She doesn't seem any different physically, so I never considered that. It could be that she has a tooth issue since she seems to withdraw herself when food is involved. I'll definitely make an appointment for her for Monday. Thank you for that advice!!

Other than being ill, would there be any other reason that a dog would withdraw from the pack when food is present?
Those that hold back when food is present, if not due a personal illness or pain-related, usually hold back because that dog is being sent signals from another dog that that dog doesn't have permission to eat with the pack. Most dogs honor that as long as it is a pack thing and allow it go forth and are quite understanding and happy with that situation unless they feel they are capable and it is time they assumed an alpha role. A dominant dog that is attempting to supplant the existing alpha(s) will not tolerate being directed by the other(s) and usually will always create a problem constantly challenging the authority of the other dog(s), approaching the meal, and testing his boundaries to see if he can get the alpha(s) to back off and allow him to take over. Older or an alpha sensing the other dog is wiser/stronger, etc., may quietly back away and allow the transition to take place. Other alpha dogs will give the would-be alpha a stern stare down, focus in on them and walk toward them to back them off. Or they may show teeth, growl, nip or flat out attack, depending upon the assessment the alpha has made of the attempt and the strength of will/ability behind that attempt. With some subservient dogs, just the flick of an ear or a body attitude of an alpha or even a scent sent forth can send a clear message and they back off, needing no more overt signals to know their place and agree with it. If you dog is suddenly doing this and did not used to, as I say it could be a pack thing or a personal illness/pain of some type that has developed. Or that dog has just developed a fear of eating for some reason. I would try changing the treats for her to boiled chicken or warm turkey hot dogs - something really luscious - and see if that too is ignored or avoided even when the other dogs are out of the room. Then, if she does take that food, bring the other dogs in one at a time and see if she backs off from one of the other dogs being around. If so, then that other dog is sending a signal she isn't allowed to eat due to hierarchy rules.

If she ignores the treat/food change and won't take it at all, there is a problem with her and if the problem is not from illness/pain, she might have developed some fear of food related to a traumatic experience that happened when eating and will have to be desensitized to eat normally again with the others around. Sometimes if a dog is eating and there is a foreign object that sticks the tongue or mouth or they have a painful tooth, sensitive tongue due to being bitten or a sore spot in the mouth, they can be traumatized by that, particularly a somewhat nervous or slightly unstable dog at that time, perhaps due to changes in its lifestyle or environment. Something that trivial to us can traumatize some dogs and make them fearful of that activity in the future.

A fearful dog will often isolate/go into avoidance of others when the fear trigger is present. They dislike showing their weakness or fear, programmed to keep it secret if they can, and attempt to disguise/hide it.
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Old 08-03-2013, 01:02 PM   #9
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That really is very interesting. I really appreciate you taking the time to write all of that. I will do what you suggested about offering her a treat in a separate room & then bringing the other dogs in. I'm also going to try to pay close attention to their behavior & interaction with each other. In the meantime, I'll bring her to the vet to get a round of testing done. Thank you so much.
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