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Old 08-26-2009, 07:05 PM   #1
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Omg I fear what ive been told to do has only made it worse

I'd really appreciate some suggestions with how to deal with a tiny yorkie that is displaying some (what i believe to be) fear based aggression/and possibly jealously issues.. i was told to place him on his back when he initiates a fight but it doesnt really seem to be working. if anything, i think it has maybe made matters worse/increased his insecurities... i think he seems to be confused as to his place in the hierarchy within the home... he is the youngest and the smallest, yet he seems to want to be the alpha dog, and other dogs he encounters seem to let him behave badly because he is so small and probably looks rather harmless. It seems they are just humoring him really but i am afraid one day some dog will not be so understanding and he will get into some trouble and get seriously hurt. He subtly guards food/toys/people from other dogs who honestly could care less about who "owns" what, (for example, he likes to lay on the top doggie stair to, subtly, prevent others from going up on said bed, couch etc.), he growls lowly occasionally and tries to intimidate by staring at others for LONG periods of time and he sometimes gives a little snap at the air when he is upset and thinks no one is looking. Also, among other crazy things, he sometimes jumps from very far away to try and knock another dog out of the way when someone reaches to pet them! To be honest all of this is can be hard to witness without laughing (i mean he does some really unbelievable things), but at the same time i understand he is doing these things very seriously and i am therefore very stern and treat his actions accordingly... but at the same time while he is doing all this, it is very obvious that he is underneath a little scaredy cat in most situations..

I really would like to help him through this...and i will be as patient as i have to be. i am thinking one of the things he really needs is much much more socialization, but it needs to be done gradually. it seems he is getting worse lately though and that is causing me great concern. He is not like this all of the time though... he can be very sweet/affectionate indeed and has a (deceivingly) angelic little face to go along with it.. but as far as i have been able to gather, the bad behavior seems to stem from him wanting to get the most attention. i would really appreciate any suggestions... i am really looking more so towards positive reinforcement or something else along those lines... i dont really want to punish him for bad behavior because i dont want to make him any more insecure/afraid. But i also dont want to condone him picking fights or being mean (he is not aggressive towards people, strangers or children). He is getting neutered this week which i hope will help calm him down and he is starting positive reinforcement obedience in october.. but other than that, any suggestions for what i can do in the meanwhile?

thanks for any help
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Old 08-26-2009, 07:24 PM   #2
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What you are doing is called the Alpha Roll and, yes, it can make aggression much worse:


http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/tra...lpha-roll.html

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/tra...ification.html


There are links to the Nothing in Life is Free Program in the first thread.
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Old 08-26-2009, 07:40 PM   #3
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What you are doing is called the Alpha Roll and, yes, it can make aggression much worse:


http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/tra...lpha-roll.html

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/tra...ification.html


There are links to the Nothing in Life is Free Program in the first thread.
hi thanks for your reply..

yes i do know it is called the alpha roll.. i previously went through those threads and i have to say after my experience that i agree it really isnt helping matters and might have made it worse.. it seems to be a little controversial on the boards at the moment

I didnt read all the way through though so i did not get to the links you suggested.. I will check them out!! thanks again
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Old 08-26-2009, 07:43 PM   #4
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Hi!

Is he a puppy? Adult dogs generally will correct puppies, so I wouldn't count on them "humoring" him. Can you take him to a small dogs park / doggy daycare / play dates so he can learn better manners with his peers?

It also sounds like he is resource guarding more than anything else. You can google it and see if that sounds applicable. As a start, you can teach him Take It / Drop It / Leave It / Trade. That might help.

Also, I'm not clear, do you have other dogs in your household?
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Old 08-26-2009, 07:54 PM   #5
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hi thanks for your reply..

yes i do know it is called the alpha roll.. i previously went through those threads and i have to say after my experience that i agree it really isnt helping matters and might have made it worse.. it seems to be a little controversial on the boards at the moment

I didnt read all the way through though so i did not get to the links you suggested.. I will check them out!! thanks again
The Nothing in Life is Free program is recommended by the Humane Society. It is a wonderful program for dogs who are resource guarding as it puts you in charge of the resources.

Nothing in Life is Free

Nothing in Life is Free Gaining control of your dog humanely
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Old 08-26-2009, 08:08 PM   #6
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Hi!

Is he a puppy? Adult dogs generally will correct puppies, so I wouldn't count on them "humoring" him. Can you take him to a small dogs park / doggy daycare / play dates so he can learn better manners with his peers?

It also sounds like he is resource guarding more than anything else. You can google it and see if that sounds applicable. As a start, you can teach him Take It / Drop It / Leave It / Trade. That might help.

Also, I'm not clear, do you have other dogs in your household?
no he is not a puppy.. he is a little over a year old. Where i live there arent any dog parks so that is disappointing. I have another small yorkie in the house that is around his size, and she is around 5 months older than him. At the moment i am also caring for someone else's small dog that they already know.. so there are 3 of them together.

I did read the definitions more clearly and it seems he is doing the resource guarding and some kinds of dominance aggression more so than fear based aggression which i thought it was originally.. it seems like he is testing the waters right now with trying to see how much power he can gain within the group.

petco has saturday play dates which i am thinking of signing him up for (but you have to pay). I did it with pebbles and though i was unhappy with it in the end, it was something.. the reason i am hesitant to take him there is because i do not like the "trainer" and she does not go to any lengths to protect the small dogs from the rather unruly bigger dogs. i think i will just try to find the playgroup with the most small dogs

i will work on the leave it take it etc.. pebbles knows those commands.. actually.. pebbles is far more trained than him because i have taken her through all the classes because you have to take them back to back... after she gets her advanced 2 diploma in september im going through the whole thing again with bam bam.. hopefully then he will be more courteous
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Old 08-26-2009, 08:26 PM   #7
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Well, use your judgment on the training sessions. You might try Craigslist, put an ad up to see if anyone in your area wants to do small dog play groups. There are no yorkie meets in your area?

You can also check meetup sites, there might already be some going, and they are most likely free. Thor is undersocialized, and yorkie meetups have helped a LOT, even though we only go twice per month. Yorkies seem to prefer other yorkies.
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Old 08-26-2009, 08:40 PM   #8
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Ok first of all he is still a puppy dogs are not all grown up in the head unti lthey are three so you have a few years yet to get this turned around and going forward. the soner thebetter though as the less he reinforces the bad stuff the better.

Second. I am not a fan of pet coo training they are not concistant across the obard in using postive and they lack a great dea l of training in aggresion.
I suggest you look here at a trainer for postive Truly Dog Friendly Truly Dog-Friendly Trainers
Scroll down there are a few in Florida.
Third drop the thought that he is jealuos that is a high level of brain funtion and we are still not sure they can do that as yet as it is in the huma npart of the brain that this function occirs and dogs do nto have that part of the brain in thier as developed.

Fourth dogs do not Alpha roll other dogs the one dog shows appesment behaviour to the other. Usually it is the stronger socially knowledgable that will show the belly so the one in fear is less afraid.

Fifth I think that by the sounds of it you have an undersocilaized problem child on your hands that needs a lot of gentle rehab work see the list of trainers above.

Also the nearset vet school shoul dhave a behaviuourist on board and if not Google AVBA and they should have a listing on behaviourist in your area. You do want a PHD packing or APDT packing postive trainer no rough stuff.

Sixth working resouce guarding will help the take it drop it switch for a better item give it back but if he is working guarding with dogs the items need to go away and if he gets them or others then it given where each are seprated.
My girl never gets a bully stick with another dog in the room and if one comes in and I know a stick is about . I find it. Just no reason to leave a trigger around.
If he is guarding the step or blcoking passage put hime to work.. doing something else so that the others can go do their thing.

Seveth start to build hid self confindence teach him silly tricks and get him in agilty work cintrol unleash program and just keep telling him wit htaht clicker hadtreat that he is a good boy he will get it.

I sugget Pat McConnells pamphlet feeling out numbered living in a multi dog house.

JL
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:27 PM   #9
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Ok first of all he is still a puppy dogs are not all grown up in the head unti lthey are three so you have a few years yet to get this turned around and going forward. the soner thebetter though as the less he reinforces the bad stuff the better.

Second. I am not a fan of pet coo training they are not concistant across the obard in using postive and they lack a great dea l of training in aggresion.
I suggest you look here at a trainer for postive Truly Dog Friendly Truly Dog-Friendly Trainers
Scroll down there are a few in Florida.
Third drop the thought that he is jealuos that is a high level of brain funtion and we are still not sure they can do that as yet as it is in the huma npart of the brain that this function occirs and dogs do nto have that part of the brain in thier as developed.

Fourth dogs do not Alpha roll other dogs the one dog shows appesment behaviour to the other. Usually it is the stronger socially knowledgable that will show the belly so the one in fear is less afraid.

Fifth I think that by the sounds of it you have an undersocilaized problem child on your hands that needs a lot of gentle rehab work see the list of trainers above.

Also the nearset vet school shoul dhave a behaviuourist on board and if not Google AVBA and they should have a listing on behaviourist in your area. You do want a PHD packing or APDT packing postive trainer no rough stuff.

Sixth working resouce guarding will help the take it drop it switch for a better item give it back but if he is working guarding with dogs the items need to go away and if he gets them or others then it given where each are seprated.
My girl never gets a bully stick with another dog in the room and if one comes in and I know a stick is about . I find it. Just no reason to leave a trigger around.
If he is guarding the step or blcoking passage put hime to work.. doing something else so that the others can go do their thing.

Seveth start to build hid self confindence teach him silly tricks and get him in agilty work cintrol unleash program and just keep telling him wit htaht clicker hadtreat that he is a good boy he will get it.

I sugget Pat McConnells pamphlet feeling out numbered living in a multi dog house.

JL

hi.. that was a lot of information thanks.

sorry if i misunderstand some things but some of the sentences are running together... i just wanted to clarify that i do not participate in petco training classes.. i give a big NO to them. pebbles trainer is a private trainer that was recommended by my vet and she is very very good. she trains police dogs. pebbles is in the advanced class and knows ALOT and it is all positive reinforcement training without treats and making them actually think about your commands.. the playtime at petco is not a CLASS. it is just where people can bring their dogs for a dog meetup in the area because we dont have a dog park... there is a really poorly skilled "trainer" there that "supervises".. but she doesnt teach anything. i wouldnt let her teach my dogs anything if she PAID ME.

um, also... i know people generally think owners are anthropomorphizing their dogs when they say things like them being "jealous"... but honestly i am very curious about levels of animal intelligence and do a lot of reading on it and read a lot of studies.. my main interest is in dolphins but stumbling across information on animal brains and ideas about their function i have come across information about dogs.. and yeah it is still up for debate but generally they are around a human 2 year old in terms mental development and i do think 2 year olds are capable of being jealous. if it isnt jealously, it is simply him desiring a lot of attention and being upset when he is not getting it and another dog is.

I will work on the drop it leave it etc commands, but i dont think i need to take away all of their toys. he basically is like a child in that a toy seems to gain attraction in his mind only after another dog decides it is cool to play with.. but he doesnt do this all the time and ive discussed this before with people that have multiple dogs and you cant just play police all the time.. i figure at some point they have to work it out between themselves. i have tried to let them associate certain toys as belonging to them... and it seems to have worked with a few of the toys.. as in, they go for that toy, and the other dogs respect it as beign their toy and basically leave it alone and stick to their own personal group of toys. they dont fight over bully sticks or anything liek that... he just likes to guard the food bowl but the other dogs dont care... i think i will try taking their food up etc.


i am reading about the nothing comes for free technique and it seems to make sense... he is definetly the timid dog that is afraid of the power he seems to think he has... im going to start this technique right away. it is complicated because pebbles doesnt really need this technique at all... i dont know whether i should do it with both of them or not. pebbles is rather trained and courteous and sits patiently etc waiting for direction..

i agree with the idea about agility classes... i really want to do those. pebbles trainer teaches this as well, but she wants the dogs to be off leash and "proof trained" (following a command even though it seems you dont mean it or if there are tons of distractions or things that make them not want to follow the command) before joining the class.. so he will have a wait a bit and graduate up to that level but i will definetly work on him learning some little tricks until his class starts in oct!!
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:28 PM   #10
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Well, use your judgment on the training sessions. You might try Craigslist, put an ad up to see if anyone in your area wants to do small dog play groups. There are no yorkie meets in your area?

You can also check meetup sites, there might already be some going, and they are most likely free. Thor is undersocialized, and yorkie meetups have helped a LOT, even though we only go twice per month. Yorkies seem to prefer other yorkies.
you go twice a month? where do you find these meetups? do you find them on yorkietalk? id be interested in going to yorkie meetup with my dogs, theyd love that
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:36 PM   #11
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The SF yorkie meets happen to be very near where I live, and whenever I took Thor to the park, people would ask me if I took him to the meets. Apparently there was only one SF yorkie meet, but someone started selling "Yorkies for Obama" t-shirts at that one, and there was a brouhaha over the fact that there were no "Yorkies for McCain" shirts (no, I'm not making this up). This resulting schism caused someone to form a rival yorkie meet, so now there are two every month.

Try just googling "yorkie meet" and your city, it will probably be the first link. Or "small dog meet". You can also try Do something, Learn something, Share something, Change something - Meetup.com and search for your city.

PS - I love dolphin training too! You must be into Karen Pryor. Have you read "Lads Before the Wind"?
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:39 PM   #12
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I recommend doing NILF for both dogs - it's more consistent, and your "problem dog" may be able to learn what to do from your better behaved one.
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Old 08-26-2009, 10:06 PM   #13
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hi.. that was a lot of information thanks.

sorry if i misunderstand some things but some of the sentences are running together...Yes sometimes my sentces do run togehter and I spell not well and worse when tires i just wanted to clarify that i do not participate in petco training classes.. i give a big NO to them. pebbles trainer is a private trainer that was recommended by my vet and she is very very good. she trains police dogs. pebbles is in the advanced class and knows ALOT and it is all positive reinforcement training without treats and making them actually think about your commands.. the playtime at petco is not a CLASS. it is just where people can bring their dogs for a dog meetup in the area because we dont have a dog park... there is a really poorly skilled "trainer" there that "supervises".. but she doesnt teach anything. i wouldnt let her teach my dogs anything if she PAID ME.
Just cause one trains police dogs does not mean they know how to handle aggression at all. There is no room in police dog work for an aggressive dog at all. Trust me that most vets do not have a clue at all about training and recomending trainers all to many are old school. Great on the pet co.

um, also... i know people generally think owners are anthropomorphizing their dogs when they say things like them being "jealous"... but honestly i am very curious about levels of animal intelligence and do a lot of reading on it and read a lot of studies.. my main interest is in dolphins but stumbling across information on animal brains and ideas about their function i have come across information about dogs.. and yeah it is still up for debate but generally they are around a human 2 year old in terms mental development and i do think 2 year olds are capable of being jealous. if it isnt jealously, it is simply him desiring a lot of attention and being upset when he is not getting it and another dog is. I have a look at and around the work of temple grandin and her take on things.

I will work on the drop it leave it etc commands, but i dont think i need to take away all of their toys. he basically is like a child in that a toy seems to gain attraction in his mind only after another dog decides it is cool to play with.. but he doesnt do this all the time and ive discussed this before with people that have multiple dogs and you cant just play police all the time.. i figure at some point they have to work it out between themselves. i have tried to let them associate certain toys as belonging to them... and it seems to have worked with a few of the toys.. as in, they go for that toy, and the other dogs respect it as beign their toy and basically leave it alone and stick to their own personal group of toys. they dont fight over bully sticks or anything liek that... he just likes to guard the food bowl but the other dogs dont care... i think i will try taking their food up etc.

When managing a multi dog family with one that has issuse you need to not let them work it out as it will only get worse a they will end up doing great harm.


i am reading about the nothing comes for free technique and it seems to make sense... he is definetly the timid dog that is afraid of the power he seems to think he has... im going to start this technique right away. it is complicated because pebbles doesnt really need this technique at all... i dont know whether i should do it with both of them or not. pebbles is rather trained and courteous and sits patiently etc waiting for direction..

i agree with the idea about agility classes... i really want to do those. pebbles trainer teaches this as well, but she wants the dogs to be off leash and "proof trained" (following a command even though it seems you dont mean it or if there are tons of distractions or things that make them not want to follow the command) before joining the class.. so he will have a wait a bit and graduate up to that level but i will definetly work on him learning some little tricks until his class starts in oct!!
You need to look into a CU class and if there is one in the area and get him enrolled. It can be done.
Quiclsilvers coment that your good dog will teach the bad one is well not correct in that the learning will go both ways and yes both dogs on Nothing in life is a good Idea. I would also suggest Dr Overalls protocal for relaxation
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Last edited by YorkieMother; 08-26-2009 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 08-27-2009, 06:27 AM   #14
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A trainer on another forum recommended these books for dealing with a dog with fear aggression:

Scaredy Dog by Ali Brown
Click to Calm by Emma Parsons
Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
Cautious Canine by Patricia McConnell
Feisty Fido by Patricia McConnell
Fearfulness Pamphlet by Ian Dunbar

All are available from Dogwise.com

I have the Culture Clash and it's an excellent all around training book IMO.
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:31 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ladymom View Post
A trainer on another forum recommended these books for dealing with a dog with fear aggression:

Scaredy Dog by Ali Brown
Click to Calm by Emma Parsons
Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
Cautious Canine by Patricia McConnell
Feisty Fido by Patricia McConnell
Fearfulness Pamphlet by Ian Dunbar

All are available from Dogwise.com

I have the Culture Clash and it's an excellent all around training book IMO.
All really good books I would add and it should be a must read for all dogs owners is On talking ters with dogs by Truis Rugrass,

JL
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