Breeding Different coats & colours ?

[Lorraine]

<<Generally, a red legged Yorkie is usually introduced into the breeding program to bring back the true blue and gold colors when a line is getting too washed out (more silver than blue).>>
This is not true at all if you ask knowledgable long time show breeders, ie someone in it longer than 25 years.
I was having a problem with coats going light until I got Tommy who has a strong Durrer background. Betty Anne does not keep or have red leg Yorkies, any soft coats that might appear are sold for pet. The colour on Tommy is awesome AND the colour on his offspring is looking good so far. Yes I still get some that look like they may go light but not near as light as some of my previous ones. Many look like they are going to hold colour and are silk coated.
In conversing with Betty Anne and others with her years and experience, breed good colour silk and you will for the most part produce it. OF course, there will be light ones showing up, but decide what is in the best interest of the breed as to whether you will keep them in a breeding program.
NOW that I know that, I would be hard pressed to keep a light coated or soft coated male. A female maybe, depending on the pedigree and other factors. I would never consider keeping or using or getting a red leg.

[Peters]

someone on yt had pics of a red leg yorkie posted i believe

[Lacy's Mom]

[quote=Lorraine]<<Generally, a red legged Yorkie is usually introduced into the breeding program to bring back the true blue and gold colors when a line is getting too washed out (more silver than blue).>>

This is not true at all if you ask knowledgable long time show breeders, ie someone in it longer than 25 years.

Information obtained from http://dandugmore.netfirms.com/color.html by Joan Gordon - over 50 years in breeding and considered one of the most knowledgeable breeders and judges. About Joan Gordon:

Joan has been showing Yorkie's for 50 years this year. She orginally bought and finished 5. Finished 19 American Bred 54 imported and 168 homebred Champions. She has written two books and collected every piece of Yorkshire Terrier Memorabilia she could get her hands on from all over the world. A trip to her home in Glenview Illinois is a delightful experience and education in itself.

She has been crowned the "Godmother of all Yorkshire Terriers" and certainly the breed would not have been the same with out her loving hand.

Years ago Mrs. Annie Swan, of the Invincia Yorkies, told us to keep one in our breeding program. She said everyone kept a so called "Red". They occasionally appeared from silky coated parents. No one ever showed them, but since they had the ability to return color pattern to it's proper boundaries and the ability to darken the color of a lighter dog when bred to them, they were on occasion bred in. Bred to cottony or wooly texture they usually have little effect. Bred to silk texture they improve color. Bred together they usually produce themselves and occasionally a lovely colored silk dog - but this is the exception.

[Lorraine]

[quote=Lacy's Mom]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

<<Generally, a red legged Yorkie is usually introduced into the breeding program to bring back the true blue and gold colors when a line is getting too washed out (more silver than blue).>>

This is not true at all if you ask knowledgable long time show breeders, ie someone in it longer than 25 years.

Information obtained from http://dandugmore.netfirms.com/color.html by Joan Gordon - over 50 years in breeding and considered one of the most knowledgeable breeders and judges. About Joan Gordon:

Joan has been showing Yorkie's for 50 years this year. She orginally bought and finished 5. Finished 19 American Bred 54 imported and 168 homebred Champions. She has written two books and collected every piece of Yorkshire Terrier Memorabilia she could get her hands on from all over the world. A trip to her home in Glenview Illinois is a delightful experience and education in itself.

She has been crowned the "Godmother of all Yorkshire Terriers" and certainly the breed would not have been the same with out her loving hand.

Years ago Mrs. Annie Swan, of the Invincia Yorkies, told us to keep one in our breeding program. She said everyone kept a so called "Red". They occasionally appeared from silky coated parents. No one ever showed them, but since they had the ability to return color pattern to it's proper boundaries and the ability to darken the color of a lighter dog when bred to them, they were on occasion bred in. Bred to cottony or wooly texture they usually have little effect. Bred to silk texture they improve color. Bred together they usually produce themselves and occasionally a lovely colored silk dog - but this is the exception.

You are absolutely right that was the drill YEARS AGO. However, as the Yorkie has changed over the years and we do have great coat and colour available via good colour silk Yorkies in the gene pool that were not there years ago, the show breeders of today no longer go that route of keeping soft coats or red leg.
Years ago many Yorkies in the show ring were black and tan soft coated cobby Yorkies. Not what we see today at all most of the time.
There was another thread on this forum about red leg and this was brought up at that time as well as going into there not being a need for soft coat or red leg anymore.

[YorkieRose]

A red leg used to be called a wire coat. It may have been a practive many years ago when soft coats were so hard to breed out and bring in a deep steel silk...times change in all areas of breeding and animal husbandary. The many breeders I talked with, Cher at Goldenray for one has said many times it is a practice of the past...such as close inbreeding..what was once a plus, is not a minus. Breeders used to give lepto and calcuim during gestation,

I have read several things in Joan and Anne's books that are not longer a common practice in 2006...I am in no way putting this foundation breeders down..but we no long do many things that were once acceptable...times change and so do breeding practices...

[Lacy's Mom]

I didn't realize I had responded to such a controversial topic - was researching to find a pic for the original poster and came across where a breeder bred a red leg to a champion - received some ugly comments, but it looks like the outcome was beautiful to me and what it did years ago, apparently it can still do today.

Anyway, here's a link to a picture of a red legged (hope the breeder doesn't mind). http://yorkiepassion.com/hedy.htm

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

A red leg used to be called a wire coat. It may have been a practive many years ago when soft coats were so hard to breed out and bring in a deep steel silk...times change in all areas of breeding and animal husbandary. The many breeders I talked with, Cher at Goldenray for one has said many times it is a practice of the past...such as close inbreeding..what was once a plus, is not a minus. Breeders used to give lepto and calcuim during gestation,

I have read several things in Joan and Anne's books that are not longer a common practice in 2006...I am in no way putting this foundation breeders down..but we no long do many things that were once acceptable...times change and so do breeding practices...

Pat, after I logged off,I realized I should have added comments similar to your last paragraph. The foundation breeders certainly did give us a legacy that the Yorkie of today was built upon and I do not in any way take anything away from them. But this is no longer the breeding practice of many show breeders as you also pointed out.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Lacy's Mom

I didn't realize I had responded to such a controversial topic - was researching to find a pic for the original poster and came across where a breeder bred a red leg to a champion - received some ugly comments, but it looks like the outcome was beautiful to me and what it did years ago, apparently it can still do today.

Anyway, here's a link to a picture of a red legged (hope the breeder doesn't mind). http://yorkiepassion.com/hedy.htm

Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion. The outcome of this breeding will not really be known until these pups are at least closer to a year of age and more as they mature AND the real story will take a good 2 or 3 generations to know where it went and whether or not this was a good idea.
Then there is population genetics where it really takes some numbers of like breedings to lead towards a conclusion if indeed, one exists.
Personally, by my own preference, I would not consider a stud service or a pup from a female that I knew had red leg in the 5 generation pedigree.
My own opinion only and not intended to be a criticsm of anyone.

[YorkieRose]

A friend of mine knew Ethel Munday very well., well respected UK foundation breeder..Ethel used to fast her Yorkies on Sunday...they got barley water and nothing else. She was big on resting the "gut" as she said.
There used to be lots of close inbreeding...father/daughter was in so many peds...there was a need back then to set type..but rarely needed now...a good YT mag article said inbreeding is a thing of the past and can be deterimental to a breeding program.

All breeders must decide for themselves...