Liver shunt questions ??

[Snow Yorkies]

Okay, I am confused. I thought I knew a little about this terrible disease. My question is as follows and I hope some of you can clear this up for me.

If you know that a puppy died from livershunt.

1.) Both parents tested negitive for liver shunt. So is it the combination of both parents genetics that produced the puppy to have the livershunt??

2.) Then would you just never breed them to together so that the liver shunt is not reproduced?

3.) Or should both of them parents be spay and neutered and never used again?

I understand genetics, not a master by any means, but I was hoping to find out the answer why a female and male are still being breed when a puppy died from this disease? If maybe I have missed something understanding liver shunt. Please help!!

[YorkieRini]

Did you ask Gayle? She told me numerous times she's an expert in genetics. I wouldn't know because I can't speak 'genetics' if my life depended on it..lolol.

I can only speak for myself and my breeding program. If bred a pair that both had normal BA but they produced 1 or more pups with LS I would NOT repeat that breeding. If the parents produced a LS in pups in with different mates then I would s/n the parent that has produced LS pup bred to completely different dogs.

I have not run into LS as of yet.

If you want to talk to someone that's an expert on genetics, email Cher from Goldenray. She's a wonderful source of information on genetics and ethics.

[scrapindee]

This is such an important question for potential Biewer owners and breeders. Any other breeders have some thoughts on this?

[YorkieRini]

Yorkies, Maltese and other Toy breeds breeding programs are at risk as well.

[YorkieRose]

If you are talking about standard color Yorkies..it goes back to several lines. You are wise not to breed a sire and dam with these dogs in common. Outcrossing these lines seems to work fine. Testing parents who are clear of shunts means nothing in regards to a line that has other members who have produced shunts. LS is not a dominant gene so having parents with healthy livers does not mean they will not produce a pup with a shunt. It can skip many generations according to LS reaeachers.

If I had a set of parents produce a shunt puppy, I would never breed them together again...but I would breed them to others. If it repeated, then I would spay/neuter them.
I would not breed a male or female who had a LS full sibling.

Researchers think it is unlikely the blame of one parent...it seems to show up with a common ancester/ancestors.

[Snow Yorkies]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

If you are talking about standard color Yorkies..it goes back to several lines. You are wise not to breed a sire and dam with these dogs in common. Outcrossing these lines seems to work fine. Testing parents who are clear of shunts means nothing in regards to a line that has other members who have produced shunts. LS is not a dominant gene so having parents with healthy livers does not mean they will not produce a pup with a shunt. It can skip many generations according to LS reaeachers.

If I had a set of parents produce a shunt puppy, I would never breed them together again...but I would breed them to others. If it repeated, then I would spay/neuter them.
I would not breed a male or female who had a LS full sibling.

Researchers think it is unlikely the blame of one parent...it seems to show up with a common ancester/ancestors.

Thank you Pat. I have been reading information on this and I am only assuming that both parents have been tested for liver shunt I haven't seen the test results for myself. But I wanted to know what the equation would be if they were not if they weren't.

This is such a terrible disease I just want to know as much as possible and the factors in what is considered proper.

Help me here I want to know that I understand this correctly. It could be the DNA make up then on this breeding pair that could have been the developing factor of liver shunt for these said puppies?

As always you come to our rescue when we need good information. Again, thank you so much...

[yorkiegal719]

It seems like Pat and Irene have the same thought on the process. It only makes sense NOT to repeat the same breeding, but also, to keep tabs on each parent and see what developes when they are mated to others. This is a problem that has plagued toy breeders since it's been detected, only with careful breeding can we keep a tab on it, look how many Yorkies still show up with it. As far as the Biewers go, we can only start to develope good breeding practices here in America so in the future we can try to eliminate it, if and when it shows up. Bottom line, get your breeding line checked out to make sure that they are as healthy as possible...

[Snow Yorkies]

Originally Posted by yorkiegal719

It seems like Pat and Irene have the same thought on the process. It only makes sense NOT to repeat the same breeding, but also, to keep tabs on each parent and see what developes when they are mated to others. This is a problem that has plagued toy breeders since it's been detected, only with careful breeding can we keep a tab on it, look how many Yorkies still show up with it. As far as the Biewers go, we can only start to develope good breeding practices here in America so in the future we can try to eliminate it, if and when it shows up. Bottom line, get your breeding line checked out to make sure that they are as healthy as possible...

No, it isn't my line. Mine have checked out fine, as well as their parents. Just trying to understand why people continue to breed these parents and if it is exceptable with other mates. Just a learning curve I am trying to understand.

[YorkieRose]

I have little clue how it is passed and researchers have no hard answers, other then they feel both paretns must contribute the gene..not just one. If the parents have not been tested who knows what is going on...but that DR Tobias bred two repaired shunt Yorkies and the offspring did not have a shunt...hows that for making you want to put a gun to your head? Of course, they have not produced enough pups to know what is what...I would imagine since they had the common LS ancestors at some point those dogs will produce a shunt or their pups..the problem is, they are going to have to produce alot of litters to see a pattern I would think.
I read an article that said the dog can accquire a shunt later in life..by that time it could have already produced pups.

Why a breeder would continue to breed when LS is in the line..I do not know..maybe they test all pups and only keep the ones with normal liver functions and destroy the rest. I knew a Doxie breeder who had a male who would always sire at least one pup in the litter with no eyes.. the rest of the pups were so nice, she put the blind one down and sold the others. New owners always got a healthy pup with two eyes, so she saw no problem. Several breeders agreed with her..

I kept and whelped a litter for a friend out of a well known champion..6 pups were born. 4 were great..two had missing front limbs and were put down. The breeder said she would repeat the breeding again with no qualms since there were 4 healthy pups. I don't know if I would..perhaps if I had the last two Yorkies on eath and the breed would die out.

[yorkiegal719]

Originally Posted by Snow Yorkies

No, it isn't my line. Mine have checked out fine, as well as their parents. Just trying to understand why people continue to breed these parents and if it is exceptable with other mates. Just a learning curve I am trying to understand.

Sue, I didn't think that it was. Is there a line your interested in and want to know about. I think that when we do the best that we can and do all our "homework" then it up to the BIG MAN upstairs to guide us. Even then like Pat said it can come from generations behind, so it's kind of like a gamble we just have to be prepared for what comes at us and be willing to take dogs out of breeding programs if it shows up. Pat, I don't know how that breeder could still have produced puppies with that same pairing after those poor puppies were born, it would have broke my heart...

[mmyorkies]

Originally Posted by Snow Yorkies

Okay, I am confused. I thought I knew a little about this terrible disease. My question is as follows and I hope some of you can clear this up for me.

If you know that a puppy died from livershunt.

1.) Both parents tested negitive for liver shunt. So is it the combination of both parents genetics that produced the puppy to have the livershunt??

2.) Then would you just never breed them to together so that the liver shunt is not reproduced?

3.) Or should both of them parents be spay and neutered and never used again?

I understand genetics, not a master by any means, but I was hoping to find out the answer why a female and male are still being breed when a puppy died from this disease? If maybe I have missed something understanding liver shunt. Please help!!

First off, how old was the pup? Was it sick at all before the shunt was discovered. Are you sure that both parents were tested? Is anything known about the previous generations of the parents? If it were me, and I knew for sure that both parents were clean, I would never breed the two together again, but I would try breeding with other males/females to see what the outcome would be. It may have been polygenic because of the two that were bred. Liver shunt is an inherited problem, but also an acquired problem. You have to do the research to find out what caused it.

[jakeepaper]

Liver shunt is not dominant, as far as we know. Therefore, it takes a male and female that carry the gene to have the POTENTIAL to produce a LS puppy. There are well known LS producers in some of the large lines and it is important to watch the back end of the pedigree to not inadvertently cross two together. If I had an LS puppy,heaven forbid, I would go outside the pedigree totally to breed either dog. Better to stay away from any common link.

[whispersmom2]

I agree with Pat. We know of lines that have been clean for yoears and then LS started showing up. Years ago, a local stud had been used for seemed like half of thepuppies produced. I never heard of LS but it probably happened. Long after the stud was dead, a friend used my stud who had him in his 5th gen back to breed with a female that had him in the 6th gen back. There were twin boys born..One had LS; one didn't. I started researching with Dr. Tobias and she wanted blood specs from each puppy but the owners wanted no parts of it. So, my stud was retired and the female was bred only that one time...
The recessive genes that produce our parti colors in US Yorkies are recessive and that is why a parti can be born after several gens have been skipped.
I would try an out-studding for each parent and follow those puppies but would not breed the same 2 together.. LS is too scary for me. There are so many BYBers who have no idea about the genetics of breeding factors and it is causing way too many problems, I am afraid.....

[shyorkies]

I honestly have been through the experience of a LS puppy.. A few years ago I purchased a finished UKC Champion male and a female from the same breeder.. They had similiar lines to one another also.. I bred the two of them together and she whelped one female and one male.. Before the puppies were born I let the previous owner take back the male, he did not get along with my other dogs and the longer he was in my home the worst it got.. When they first came to my home I had both of them tested, acid bile levels, full blood panels and x-rays.. They both tested out perfect on all accounts! I ended up placing the male puppy at about 16 weeks old into a pet home.. He was on the small side, but never showed one health issue that would of made me question his health.. I did keep the female back and later placed her into a pet home also.. When the male turned 7 months old I received a telephone call from the owners to inform me the male was sick and their vet had just ran some test on him that day.. They went on to tell me his acid bile level was over 300!! I could NOT believe it! I could of fallen on the floor and cried! But parents past all the test my vet had given them! The little male was taken to a animal hospital in Louisville and they found one external shunt on him and fixed it at that time.. I can honestly say that he is a normal healthy dog now and I am so grateful to the man above for that!! Through this time I also tested his littermate and she tested fine, but I did spay her and placed her into a nearby pet home and I also spay the dam and placed her into a pet home.. I also refunded the owners price for the puppy and also paid for 1/2 of the surgery and vet bill for the LS issue.. They were very nice through the whole ordeal and have always been kind to me!

I had talked to Terri Shumsky through this who ordeal.. She was very helpful and truly helped me from going crazy.. I had blamed myself for this and had a very difficult time coping with it! Terri shared her experiences with LS with me which truly helped! She told me the only way I could find out who threw the liver shunt was to breed the father to the daughter and the mother to the son.. She stated that whichever one threw the liver shunt would throw it again in this litter with it being so tightly inbred.. Needless to say I told her I would NEVER do those two breeding! So I truly never found out which one was throwing the LS.. I can also tell you that Terri stated the lines the dam and sire came from were not liver shunt throwers.. I had the mama spay, but the father I let go back to the previous owner before the litter was even born.. I can honestly tell you that I just recently found out that she NEVER had the father neutered and is using him in her breeding program! I about died when I found this out!

I can honestly tell you when I found out about the LS male puppy I had placed that was a very dark time and I felt so guilty.. I would cry and cry.. To think that I had put this wonderful family through this very sad ordeal.. I at that time only tested my breeders acid bile levels and not my puppies, but I can tell you now nothing leaves my home without their acid bile levels being tested! I can also tell you that it NEVER crossed my mind to breed the mother again.. To me the only option was to spay the mother and I wish I had kept the father, he would have been neutered!

I apologize for this being a long post! But I can also say if it could happen to me it could happen to anybody..

[Snow Yorkies]

Thank you everyone for your help and sharing your personal experiences with me. What really sparked my interest in this as I do have both the Yorkshires and Biewers. I do try to research as much as possible. It was today when I was reading something on LS that I hadn't realized that the stats show the Yorkshires are 36 times greater chance of acquiring liver shunt than any other purebreed combined. I felt these numbers are quite alarming.. I know of the health issues but I never realized the numbers were this high I had missed this in my time of researching... Then I was curious how it could be justified to continue such breedings. As I am questioned why I ask these questions. I thought this is were we come to learn?

Does this concern me in the Biewer breed? You bet it does. This breed is so intertwined due to the fact it is such a young breed that I think at one point in everyone's pedigrees we have a common ancestors. So if there is a LS in this breed it is a problem that should concern all of us...At least this is what I would think?