Clubs vs Registries

[YorkieRini]

Since I basically hijacked another members thread but it was all good stuff and friendly. I did want to start another one, I guess this would be the appropriate place huh? Sue and others have their view on how a Biewer should be bred and I have mine. The point we can't seem to agree on is whether a you get a True Biewer as described in the standard or Breeding Yorkie to Biewer for because it has the Yorkshire Terrier name and to keep color. I have been on a quest to get a straight answer from my metor/breeder in Germany and the President of the IBC.
You can read how this all started in this thread...
To continue this awesome discussion; really I want to understand and hope to convince the others this is what we need to do to help this breed thrive..here's the last post on the thread listed above I'm starting this thread with...

Quoting Sue:

Okay, let me see if this helps or not. Please follow this link to my website. This is my Homer's Page. His mother is a yorkshire and his father is a Biewer, And Homer is a Biewer. There are pictures of both his parents for you to see.

http://www.magnoliasmagnificentyorki...formation.html

Now, as the show rules goes(please correct me if I am wrong) the dog that has the most accomplishments is Top Dog. Well, unless someone can tell me of another Biewer that has more accomplishments than my Homer, he is the top Biewer Yorkshire Terrier in the US at this time. My point being is he comes from a Yorkshire and a Biewer and is a Biewer Yorkshire Terrier.

Irene we had conversations & you told me that your mentor told you that this breeding is exceptable to bring a Yorkshire female & a Biewer male to breed together to develop a new line. My Homer is the result of this breeding and I have 2 of his sisters as well Harmony who to has Championships behind her as well. Kendra I haven't had long enough to get her in the ring yet. I guess what I am saying here is that you DO NOT have to go back generations to acheive the end result a Biewer Yorkshire Terrier.

I will not agrue that fact that I want them to be known as a breed of their own. I have stressed this on many many posts. But as a variation or type of Yorkshire Terrier as many many variations of other different breeds have been excepted through AKC and other clubs. I believe whispersmom indicated several posts ago. And that you learned tonight at your confirmation class.

Yes, I think we have hi-jacked this post from Momofthree and I to am very sorry for this. I have emailed back and forth with this lovely lady in her quest for the right puppy for her and her family and I admire her for wanting to research the breed so she knows what to expect.

chattiesmom I have no reason to be angry at you or anyone else. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether we agree or not... I would hate for this thread to get closed as I feel there is good valuable information on this breed.

[JHurtt]

Hi Irene,
Can you post the link to the thread that you mentioned? I would love to read it as this is of great interest to me seeing as I am a hopeful Biewer breeder (by that I mean that I am now being mentored and hope to one day breed these beautiful dogs). Thank you!

[YorkieRini]

Ok..I wanted to change the focus here. How about this angle...We have the breed clubs here in the US..YTCA is most familar to us. It's been established as a guide and to set 'rules' as to how the Yorkie breed is to be. It also covers history and the standard. So that's were we go to see what really is the Yorkie and how should it be bred. Maybe not everyone agrees with the clubs ethics or strick policy on color but because the standard has been followed for many years as described on the YTCA's site the majority of the Yorkshire Terrier race/breed/whatever you want to call it is as described in the standard b/g. Then we have the AKC which is the registry, the YTCA doesn't have a registry of their own, so they partner with the all breed Kennel Club to Compete in shows of all kinds and earn titles, register litters and trace the heritiage via pedigree the pedigree as we all know is used to show proof that it's pure bred and heritage. As we all know we have other registries like the AKC here in the US. that have shows, pedigrees and register litters to but they are not in partnership with the breed club to try and keep the focus on breeding to the standard and the standard is what wins period. The other interesting thing is that even in Agility and Obedience competitions through the AKC your Yorkie must be within the standard as described in the breed club (YTCA). BUT..another biggie...there are other clubs here in the US that also offer Performance events but pay no mind to the standard.

Putting all those FACTS into our Biewer scenario, the IBC is the breed club that provides the outline that should be followed for this breed. I can't find where it says breeding Yorkies to Biewers is acceptable for color. There is only one registry my club IBC registers with and that's the DHZ which is an all breed club mirroring the AKC because it follows the standard of the Biewer..NOT the Yorkie. In Germany there is a discinct split between Biewers and Yorkies. I just recited what club and regsitry is for the True Biewer, but the Yorkieshire Terrier has a registry that follows the standard called the VDH..there is a parent club in Germany as well that has the standard for the YORKIE. The AKC does not and will not accept any other registries except what's listed on their website..so inorder to make the True Biewer a breed of it's own..You have to have a parent club that spells out the standard and history by tracing back the parents in this log or book, then you have to have a registry that follows the standad as described in the club. And for the record, my Hope and Harmony were shown in puppy class before they came to me. The won in Germany. In addition, their parents also have titles and there is a lot of CH and INT CH in my pedigrees as well and alll were three colored. As with my male Dice..he has a remarkable pedigree. But my focus is what I have and what I want to produce my 'Of American Dream' Biewer Yorkshire Terrier Ala Pom Pon'.

As for colors. I did say in private and publically the Yorkie was bred to when the breed was evolving. I also stated that this is done carefully and selectively. Since you and I spoke privately about this I have learned that there is no need to do this now because the breed (when bred correctly) will produce the standard (of course we are takling genetics here so there are throw backs and such) but the consistency of the lines should out weigh the variation.

Oh jumping back to gentics and purity..I would like to add that my 6 Biewers that are 2 lines of TRUE Biewer all are consistent in Color and markings. My 5 girls are full sisters from 2 different litters. They are all consistent overall..they look like one breed..my male who is not closely related looks just like them too. One thinig I have to say about my experience with Biewers is that the toplines are bone straight, they have sound knees no luxation, correct scissor bites and free of LS. Mr Biewer started a good thing Health and Beauty. You can tell by the consistencey.

My focus and goal right now is to get a Biewer club here in the US that follows the parent club IBC..that is the first step IMHO..from their I'd like to approach the UKC..but this is aways down the road. I want to work with the IBC to see if we can clairify some other specifics..I want to make sure I have it all straight!! The transaltion is challenging

I have a question Sue. When you show Homer (who is adorable by the way ) how does the International entity judge him? Based on what standard or rules? I visited their website and I don't see anything about Biewers..I don't remember anyway..

[YorkieRini]

Originally Posted by JHurtt

Hi Irene,
Can you post the link to the thread that you mentioned? I would love to read it as this is of great interest to me seeing as I am a hopeful Biewer breeder (by that I mean that I am now being mentored and hope to one day breed these beautiful dogs). Thank you!

Oh yea that would help..lolol

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27717

[YorkieRini]

**I am not a member of the YTCA I visit the site frequently but have a bad memory, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong**

[JHurtt]

Wow, thank you! Took me a little while to get through all of that as there were many times I had to slow down to make sure that I was fully absorbing what each person had to say. While I definitely have an opinion on all of this, it is still not complete and therefore seeing the different views, each with valid points, really helps to make me think of what I consider to be true. Thank you all..........I definitely would love to see this discussion continue!

[goldenray]

Originally Posted by YorkieRini

Since I basically hijacked another members thread but it was all good stuff and friendly. I did want to start another one, I guess this would be the appropriate place huh? Sue and others have their view on how a Biewer should be bred and I have mine. The point we can't seem to agree on is whether a you get a True Biewer as described in the standard or Breeding Yorkie to Biewer for because it has the Yorkshire Terrier name and to keep color. I have been on a quest to get a straight answer from my metor/breeder in Germany and the President of the IBC.
You can read how this all started in this thread...
To continue this awesome discussion; really I want to understand and hope to convince the others this is what we need to do to help this breed thrive..here's the last post on the thread listed above I'm starting this thread with...

Quoting Sue:

Okay, let me see if this helps or not. Please follow this link to my website. This is my Homer's Page. His mother is a yorkshire and his father is a Biewer, And Homer is a Biewer. There are pictures of both his parents for you to see.

http://www.magnoliasmagnificentyorki...formation.html

Now, as the show rules goes(please correct me if I am wrong) the dog that has the most accomplishments is Top Dog. Well, unless someone can tell me of another Biewer that has more accomplishments than my Homer, he is the top Biewer Yorkshire Terrier in the US at this time. My point being is he comes from a Yorkshire and a Biewer and is a Biewer Yorkshire Terrier.

Irene we had conversations & you told me that your mentor told you that this breeding is exceptable to bring a Yorkshire female & a Biewer male to breed together to develop a new line. My Homer is the result of this breeding and I have 2 of his sisters as well Harmony who to has Championships behind her as well. Kendra I haven't had long enough to get her in the ring yet. I guess what I am saying here is that you DO NOT have to go back generations to acheive the end result a Biewer Yorkshire Terrier.

I will not agrue that fact that I want them to be known as a breed of their own. I have stressed this on many many posts. But as a variation or type of Yorkshire Terrier as many many variations of other different breeds have been excepted through AKC and other clubs. I believe whispersmom indicated several posts ago. And that you learned tonight at your confirmation class.

Yes, I think we have hi-jacked this post from Momofthree and I to am very sorry for this. I have emailed back and forth with this lovely lady in her quest for the right puppy for her and her family and I admire her for wanting to research the breed so she knows what to expect.

chattiesmom I have no reason to be angry at you or anyone else. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether we agree or not... I would hate for this thread to get closed as I feel there is good valuable information on this breed.

Ok I will jump on this one. As a breeder of over 30 years that has been dedicated to not only perfection in this breed, but to eradicate health issues in my line. The Yorkie is a Yorkie is a Yorkie! There is nothing more glorious then a Yorkie blue and gold silk coat reflecting the colors off one another.

Now many people go on to create new breeds, obviously, so when they are created they form their own name and do not run off the notoriety of another breed's name. The Biewer needs it's own name, which should be Biewer Terrier, just like our's is Yorkshire Terrier. Because no matter what else happens, the Yorkie is a Blue/Tan dog. In over 30 years of breeding purebred Yorkies I have never ever had a tri colored dog.

The YTCA is the caretaker of the Yorkie standard, so it is not going to change without the members changing it. No way are we going to allow dogs with white to be shown. The AKC CAN'T change the standard, only the YTCA can.

I've looked at many pictures of Biewer's and they are cute little dogs, but their coat is more like the Maltese silk rather than the Yorkie silk. Also, the majority seem to be black. This doesn't take away from them being cute dogs, but the differences from them and a Yorkie are great, since coat color and texture is HALF our standard, this makes this an entirely different breed as far as I am concerned. Take Silky Terriers in consideration. They are just as similiar to Yorkies in a different way as the Biewer is, yet they are Silky Terriers. In fact I see a lot of pet Yorkies that look more like Silkys than Yorkies.

Biewer owners should take pride in creating a breed and promoting it, but take pride in being a pioneer and create your own breed with your own name.

[YorkieRini]

Cher,

Thank you so much for your input. I agree with you 100%. Even on the name. Again, I refer back to the 3 Belgian Shepards..The are all 3 Shepards from Belgian with slightly different names.
Personally I don't think Mr Biewer thought this breed would run into this problem when he started out. Because when you read the history of the breed the reason he crated the standard was to make them their own breed. I could be wrong.
That's another reason I like the IBC..the don't deny the history or heritage of Yorkie..The make it clear to focus on the difference, the also have a log to track litters and their heritage.
The biggest challenged we may be faced with is getting past the language and culture barriers..I am not gonna let that stop me, if I am told 'It ain't gonna happen' by the president of my club then the argument is over as far as I'm concered and little old me and my 6 Biewers and a handful of others that are in my corner won't stand a chance...

Thanks for your feedback!

[YorkieRose]

JOM..for what it is worth..I have 2 cents to add. We bought one from a respected German breeder. She has a very good pedigree and truly is show quality I am told. After living with her for 6 months, I found her very different from any Yorkie I have ever owned. Bella is a wonderful girl, but not for me..she is much happier with her new owner. I realize I am basing my opinion on one Biewer..and that is unfair to them in general.
I am semi-retired and not breeding much period, so perhaps my view is pointless.
I want to wish all the sincere, dedicated breeders here with these delightful dogs., the very best possible. Can I never say I would have one as a pet..of course not. I have seen a couple tinies I could put in my pocket if their mom turned her head!!

[YorkieRini]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

JOM..for what it is worth..I have 2 cents to add. We bought one from a respected German breeder. She has a very good pedigree and truly is show quality I am told. After living with her for 6 months, I found her very different from any Yorkie I have ever owned. Bella is a wonderful girl, but not for me..she is much happier with her new owner. I realize I am basing my opinion on one Biewer..and that is unfair to them in general.
I am semi-retired and not breeding much period, so perhaps my view is pointless.
I want to wish all the sincere, dedicated breeders here with these delightful dogs., the very best possible. Can I never say I would have one as a pet..of course not. I have seen a couple tinies I could put in my pocket if their mom turned her head!!

Good point Pat! They are different!! I just had someone call me the other day that has bred Yorkies for years. She commented on how different they are. We shared experiences and funny stories and agreed they are much different to compared to Yorkies BUT how similar our stories are and experiences.

Thanks for your feed back too..it just goes to show again, a difference. It's one that's hard to explain, you can only see it when you meet a True Biewer in person

[Lorraine]

I agree 100% with you Cher. And I would also like to jump in and point out that the Biewer if you wish to develop this as a breed do so leaving the Yorkshire Terrier out of the whole thing.
The Biewers do not really look like a Yorkie and as YorkieRose pointed out and I have heard from others, their behaviours, temperments are different. That also means do not breed Yorkie/Biewers as then you are crossbreeding and it will throw a wrench into the works to have the Biewer as a separate breed. As a purebred registered Yorkie show breeder, I would never breed my Yorkie with a Silky Terrier so would never consider breeding to a Biewer.
I would also never consider a Yorkie for stud services for one of my bitches or buy a pup that has Biewer or tricolour or whatever you want to call it in its pedigree. I don't care if the AKC accepted the registration for whatever colour the Biewer or particolour or whatever you want to call it was registered under. I don't want three colours in my lines.
I am sure those that love their Biewers would not want the standard Yorkie colours in their Biewers either so why breed Biewers/Yorkies?

[sylvan]

Just a slight correction on a minor point made...It is my understanding that the Silky Terrier is the result of a x of the Yorkshire Terrier with a completely separate breed the Australian Terrier. Such crosses began when imported yorks were crossed with the Australian terrier in Australia at the latter part of the 1800's. Out crossings continued for 26 years after the development of the Silky standard while the recognized 'type' was fixed.
Biewers are not the result of an outcross with a separate breed, just a refining of the recessive piebald gene in Yorkshires to bring the piebald gene characteristics to the fore.

If my understanding is incorrect, please educate me.

[YorkieRini]

Originally Posted by sylvan

Just a slight correction on a minor point made...It is my understanding that the Silky Terrier is the result of a x of the Yorkshire Terrier with a completely separate breed the Australian Terrier. Such crosses began when imported yorks were crossed with the Australian terrier in Australia at the latter part of the 1800's. Out crossings continued for 26 years after the development of the Silky standard while the recognized 'type' was fixed.
Biewers are not the result of an outcross with a separate breed, just a refining of the recessive piebald gene in Yorkshires to bring the piebald gene characteristics to the fore.

If my understanding is incorrect, please educate me.

Then I ask you this..why do we have standards if we aren't suppose to follow them?

Sorry for being repetitive but I've made explained this several posts back. That's the question that comes to mind all the time when I ponder this..Mr Biewer has a written standard..which mentions 3 colors that are pattered as he has written, to go outside that box is mixing that breed. Regardless of the Piebald gene. Again, I will refer back to the 3 Blegian Shepards originated from the same pool..they are identical in structure movement, herding, again the variance is the colors and one has a longer coat. I am relaying to you the conversation I had with a handler/breeder of the Tevuern. Because the breeds are genes that have been evolved over the years they now have 3 different breeds and color is what sets them apart. The Tevuern has a shorter coat then the other 2, all 3 genes are related..

Why do you want to breed Biewers to Yorkies? Honestly, what benefit for the Biewer breed do you see in their future?

[yorluvr]

Originally Posted by YorkieRini

Ok..I wanted to change the focus here. How about this angle...We have the breed clubs here in the US..YTCA is most familar to us. It's been established as a guide and to set 'rules' as to how the Yorkie breed is to be. It also covers history and the standard. So that's were we go to see what really is the Yorkie and how should it be bred. Maybe not everyone agrees with the clubs ethics or strick policy on color but because the standard has been followed for many years as described on the YTCA's site the majority of the Yorkshire Terrier race/breed/whatever you want to call it is as described in the standard b/g. Then we have the AKC which is the registry, the YTCA doesn't have a registry of their own, so they partner with the all breed Kennel Club to Compete in shows of all kinds and earn titles, register litters and trace the heritiage via pedigree the pedigree as we all know is used to show proof that it's pure bred and heritage. As we all know we have other registries like the AKC here in the US. that have shows, pedigrees and register litters to but they are not in partnership with the breed club to try and keep the focus on breeding to the standard and the standard is what wins period. The other interesting thing is that even in Agility and Obedience competitions through the AKC your Yorkie must be within the standard as described in the breed club (YTCA). BUT..another biggie...there are other clubs here in the US that also offer Performance events but pay no mind to the standard.

Putting all those FACTS into our Biewer scenario, the IBC is the breed club that provides the outline that should be followed for this breed. I can't find where it says breeding Yorkies to Biewers is acceptable for color. There is only one registry my club IBC registers with and that's the DHZ which is an all breed club mirroring the AKC because it follows the standard of the Biewer..NOT the Yorkie. In Germany there is a discinct split between Biewers and Yorkies. I just recited what club and regsitry is for the True Biewer, but the Yorkieshire Terrier has a registry that follows the standard called the VDH..there is a parent club in Germany as well that has the standard for the YORKIE. The AKC does not and will not accept any other registries except what's listed on their website..so inorder to make the True Biewer a breed of it's own..You have to have a parent club that spells out the standard and history by tracing back the parents in this log or book, then you have to have a registry that follows the standad as described in the club. And for the record, my Hope and Harmony were shown in puppy class before they came to me. The won in Germany. In addition, their parents also have titles and there is a lot of CH and INT CH in my pedigrees as well and alll were three colored. As with my male Dice..he has a remarkable pedigree. But my focus is what I have and what I want to produce my 'Of American Dream' Biewer Yorkshire Terrier Ala Pom Pon'.

As for colors. I did say in private and publically the Yorkie was bred to when the breed was evolving. I also stated that this is done carefully and selectively. Since you and I spoke privately about this I have learned that there is no need to do this now because the breed (when bred correctly) will produce the standard (of course we are takling genetics here so there are throw backs and such) but the consistency of the lines should out weigh the variation.

Oh jumping back to gentics and purity..I would like to add that my 6 Biewers that are 2 lines of TRUE Biewer all are consistent in Color and markings. My 5 girls are full sisters from 2 different litters. They are all consistent overall..they look like one breed..my male who is not closely related looks just like them too. One thinig I have to say about my experience with Biewers is that the toplines are bone straight, they have sound knees no luxation, correct scissor bites and free of LS. Mr Biewer started a good thing Health and Beauty. You can tell by the consistencey.

My focus and goal right now is to get a Biewer club here in the US that follows the parent club IBC..that is the first step IMHO..from their I'd like to approach the UKC..but this is aways down the road. I want to work with the IBC to see if we can clairify some other specifics..I want to make sure I have it all straight!! The transaltion is challenging

I have a question Sue. When you show Homer (who is adorable by the way ) how does the International entity judge him? Based on what standard or rules? I visited their website and I don't see anything about Biewers..I don't remember anyway..

Personally, I would think that Biewer breeders would want to establish their own breed. This is not done overnight. The German Biewer has been bred to become it's own breed, separate from the yorkie. What I do not understand is why some American breeders think they can cross a yorkie and a biewer and still own a yorkshire terrier? It seems that most of the crosses are exactly that CROSS BREEDS, or tri-colors. Not bred as a true Biewer. If a breeder had purchased a true Biewer from the German lines, and can't imagine that they would want to "contaminate" what Mr. Biewer worked so hard to develop?

Cher made a good point that the YTCA controls the standard of the Yorkshire Terrier, not the AKC. I for one, am in favor to make a disqualification in our standard for any dog with primarily white in its coat. This would exclude these tri-color dogs from ever being shown in AKC events. I saw where a tri color was shown at the "International" show. These shows are nothing more than a glorified puppy match. They have no registry backers. Even the FCI, which is the ONLY international recognized show does not recognize the Biewer as a yorkshire terrier. This has been a big discussion on the yorkie lists with correspondance to back that statement.

I think the Biewers are adorable. And for the serious breeders who are working to perfect this breed, I say go for it. But it is not, and never will be, a yorkshire terrier.
Julie
Jo-Nel, Reg'd

[YorkieRini]

Originally Posted by yorluvr

Personally, I would think that Biewer breeders would want to establish their own breed. This is not done overnight. The German Biewer has been bred to become it's own breed, separate from the yorkie. What I do not understand is why some American breeders think they can cross a yorkie and a biewer and still own a yorkshire terrier? It seems that most of the crosses are exactly that CROSS BREEDS, or tri-colors. Not bred as a true Biewer. If a breeder had purchased a true Biewer from the German lines, and can't imagine that they would want to "contaminate" what Mr. Biewer worked so hard to develop?

Cher made a good point that the YTCA controls the standard of the Yorkshire Terrier, not the AKC. I for one, am in favor to make a disqualification in our standard for any dog with primarily white in its coat. This would exclude these tri-color dogs from ever being shown in AKC events. I saw where a tri color was shown at the "International" show. These shows are nothing more than a glorified puppy match. They have no registry backers. Even the FCI, which is the ONLY international recognized show does not recognize the Biewer as a yorkshire terrier. This has been a big discussion on the yorkie lists with correspondance to back that statement.

I think the Biewers are adorable. And for the serious breeders who are working to perfect this breed, I say go for it. But it is not, and never will be, a yorkshire terrier.
Julie
Jo-Nel, Reg'd

Julie..Thank you this is a VERY good point! I don't know enough but the International organization. I tried to research but the website has only info to register and complete and win..but what are they measuring too..that's another question..

The only way I see to 1. create a Parent club here in the US that spells out everything..2. approach the UKC once years of breeding to the standard can be traced. I was excited to learn that the IBC holds this type of record, we may be closer than we think but we will only slip farther if we keep diluting the standard...that's the focus of the UKC too..the want parentage to prove the standard is what it is basically. How can we prove that if we have pedigrees that jump all over the map??

As for refining..what are you refining if you breed the 2 standards? Neither IMO