Avoiding(?) a 'Little One'

[BamaFan121s]

OK, this got buried, so I am moving my second question to a new thread.

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Quote:
[Originally Posted by yorkiemom1970]
they could be a few days apart in development. i've witnessed this a few times. "runts" can be a fluke or they can be from a last conception date. [/quote]



This being said leads to my second question. When planning to breed Trixie, we took her a couple of times during her 1st heat and again the heat we bred her to test and determine when she was "most fertile." We were aware of the whole 'last one conceived has less time to fully develop' scenerio. This being known, we found what we believe to be her 'most fertile' time and only bred? mated? them 2 days (once in the AM, once in the PM both days) to try to eliminate a 'wee bitty one' from being born...at least because of THIS reason. It seemed to work as we had 4 heatlhy pups w/ none really lagging behind.
This is the first time I've seen this mentioned here. I knew we practiced this, but I was wandering, how many others here do? Is this something that everyone generally does? I found this very interesting (and common sense) when I was preparing myself as a breeder. For those of you who plan accordingly, do you find it makes a difference? (I guess in them being relatively equal in how they have developed when they are born?)

[BamaFan121s]

bump...how embarrasing

[Yorkieville200]

I'm not a breeder, but I thought I'd bump this up for you. One of my girls breeders only breeds twice, w/i 48 hours to avoid the "little one" in the litter.

[red98vett]

Misty....It's been slow - maybe today more breeder buddies will see this and answer ? I sure have NO Idea about this kind of thing I didn't even KNOW you could do this ... very interesting ....

[txshopper73]

Girl, what's wrong with you???? It's early in the morning!!!!

IMO, I don't know how the theory works since female sperm survives 72 hours and male sperm 24. This is all just what I've heard, though.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

Girl, what's wrong with you???? It's early in the morning!!!!

It's an hour earlier where YOU are!

[YorkieRini]

As you know I do progestrone testing on my bitches and only breed when they are at peak of ovulation. The time frame varies on every bitch. But per my vet this is the range a bitch can be at peak of her heat: "Even though she has this three week-plus heat cycle, there is a three to four day window we have to hit that varies from bitch to bitch."

I only breed twice when she's at peak per the progestrone results. In my experience I have NOT had a puppy that was a under developed (for lack of a better term). You theory makes sense but IMO the day or two gap between conception of puppies would be enough to produce a 'runt' or a puppy that is under developed. I have had small puppies in a litter even though I breed twice within a 3 day window but they were just as healthy and strong. One only weighs 2 pounds at 2 yrs old and has not had any set backs.

Again, this is just my experience thus far.

[YorkieRini]

Originally Posted by YorkieRini

You theory makes sense but IMO the day or two gap between conception of puppies would NOT be enough to produce a 'runt' or a puppy that is under developed.

Correction

[BamaFan121s]

Hmm, interesting Irene. Let me offer this scenario: Let's say you breed over a 4 day period. Then let's say your female has her litter early, maybe 4-5 days before her should-be whelp date. Then the pups later conceived would have actually had 8-9 days less to develop than the normal gestation period calls for. What difference could it have made in this case when they had over a week less time vs only a day or two less time? Just interesting to think about.

BTW, thanks for your response!

[txshopper73]

Here's a question for everyone. How do we know that a bitch releases eggs over a few days. What's to say that she doesn't release them all at one time? Is there proof on this?

Who's to say that the reason why some would be underdeveloped is because there wasn't room where their fertilized egg attached to the uterus and the other pups just took up too much room???

I'm just curious since Paula and myself have discussed this before.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

Here's a question for everyone. How do we know that a bitch releases eggs over a few days. What's to say that she doesn't release them all at one time? Is there proof on this?

Who's to say that the reason why some would be underdeveloped is because there wasn't room where their fertilized egg attached to the uterus and the other pups just took up too much room???

I'm just curious since Paula and myself have discussed this before.

Hmmm...good point...more interesting questions.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

Here's a question for everyone. How do we know that a bitch releases eggs over a few days. What's to say that she doesn't release them all at one time? Is there proof on this?

Who's to say that the reason why some would be underdeveloped is because there wasn't room where their fertilized egg attached to the uterus and the other pups just took up too much room???

I'm just curious since Paula and myself have discussed this before.

Being nosey and curious, I did a web search and did find several links explaining that dogs can be, but are not always, multiple ovulators (I can post the links if anyone just reeeeally wants to read them...they were SO interesting ) Meaning they can release eggs over a period of time rather than all at once. If this IS the case, the theory(?) would make sense. Again, BRIEF search. I don't know, just one opinion I guess. Since I'm not a scientist/genius whatever, I guess I will never know for sure.

Kimberley, you do make an EXCELLENT point though. How do you know if they attached themselves leaving too little room to grow?

[sylvan]

here I go with the novel again, but I found this an interesting article...and I am too stupid to do links correctly so I'm just copying it here.
2 + 2 + 2 = 10 OR MORE

Jane Barber, DVM, MS, Dipomate ACT

Often bitches are referred to me when they fail to conceive. Their owners are frustrated and abjectly disappointed, but resolutely determined to find out why no puppies are forthcoming. They are often prepared to go to any length to get to the cause, including chromosome analysis and surgical biopsy. Most of the time these tests are not necessary. In my practice, over half of the females presented for work-up of an infertility problem are perfectly normal reproductively. So if these bitches are perfectly normal, why aren’t they pregnant? They aren’t pregnant because their breedings were improperly timed.

The average bitch ovulates about 12 days after the onset of proestrus. The most prominent signs of proestrus onset are vulvar swelling and bloody vulvar discharge. A common rule of thumb is to breed bitches on day 11 and 13 after onset of proestrus. The vast majority of bitches will conceive an average-numbered litter of puppies when bred on these days (to a fertile male). However, some bitches ovulate as early as 3 days or as late as 26 days after proestrus onset. Even taking into account that canine spermatozoa can live in a normal female reproductive tract for at least 5 days, breedings that occur on days 11 and 13 for these early and late ovulators will not result in conception. Remember that while sperm cells are relatively long-lived, oocytes (eggs) remain viable only about 24 hours after they are ready to be fertilized.

Success in breeding early and late ovulating bitches demands that breedings be properly timed, which in turn, demands that the time of ovulation be accurately determined. Early and late ovulating bitches were used as examples to illustrate the importance of accurately timed breedings. There are other breeding situations when ovulation timing should be performed:

When the breeding is being done by AI (artificial insemination).
When bitches experience a “silent estrus” and fail to show standing behavior.
When bitches are to be shipped. It is best to ship bitches after their LH surge to avoid a decrease in LH that might result from the stress of shipment.
When the dog is heavily “booked” so as to avoid sperm cell depletion by over-usage.
When there is a need to accurately predict whelping dates, as in cases of planned Caesarian sections, or cases of previous dystocia (difficult birth), or with any valuable litter. One of the most gut-wrenching decisions a veterinarian has to make is the decision to surgically deliver puppies when no breeding dates or only breeding dates, and not ovulation dates, are known.
Ovulation dates are determined by measuring serum concentrations of progesterone during late proestrus and estrus. Progesterone levels in the bitch begin to rise about 2 days before ovulation. Serum progesterone is <1.0 ng/ml when bitches are not “in heat” and during most of proestrus. Values increase rapidly to >1.0 ng/ml about 2 days before ovulation. Serum progesterone is 4-10 ng/ml when bitches are ovulating. This 2 day interval between the initial rise in progesterone and ovulation represents the first “2” in our equation, “2 + 2 + 2 = 10 or more.”
But our task is not done just because we know when ovulation is taking place. That’s because the bitch has yet another reproductive idiosyncrasy. Unlike other domestic species, which ovulate ova (eggs) as secondary oocytes that are ready for immediate fertilization, the bitch releases ova in a more immature state as primary oocytes. It takes about 48 hours (or 2 days) for these primary oocytes to mature into secondary oocytes and become ready to accept spermatozoa in the fertilization process. This 2 days for oocyte maturation is represents the second “2” in our equation, “2 + 2 + 2 = 10 or more.”

When ovulation does occur, the ova are not all released in an instant of time. It typically takes about 48 hours for all of the ova to be released from the ovary. That’s the rationale for the common practice of breeding dogs twice 2 days apart. This 48 hour or 2 day duration of ovulation, represents the third “2” in our equation “2 + 2 + 2 =10 or more.”

It should be pointed out that serum progesterone concentration measurement is only one tool used for predicting both the time of ovulation and optimal breeding dates. It is prudent to use all available methods for planning a breeding. Other diagnostic tools include vaginal cytology, vaginoscopy, and LH (luteinizing hormone) assays.

Proper timing of ovulation, along with knowledge of canine reproductive physiology and endocrinology, are necessary in managing a successful breeding program. Use progesterone assays to predict when ovulation will occur, understand that canine ova are not ready to be fertilized at the time of ovulation, and do 2 breedings to ensure that rigorous spermatozoa are “ready, willing and able” at the instant each ovum matures to a fertilizable state. That is the way to make “2 + 2 + 2 = 10 or more. . . PUPPIES!”

Jane Barber, DVM, MS, Dipomate ACT

Dr. Barber is board certified in Theriogenology and is a member of the American College of Theriogenologists. She is also certified to perform PennHIP radiographs for evaluation of hip joint laxity. Prior to her graduate training in reproduction, Dr. Barber completed a clinical residency and Master’s degree program in veterinary behavior. She provides behavioral consultation and behavioral modification therapy for pets. Her veterinary practice, Veterinary Specialties at the Lake, is located north of Charlotte in the Lake Norman area.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by sylvan

here I go with the novel again,

You gotta do what ya gotta do to get it all in there. Thanks! This info is GREAT!

[YorkieRini]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Hmm, interesting Irene. Let me offer this scenario: Let's say you breed over a 4 day period. Then let's say your female has her litter early, maybe 4-5 days before her should-be whelp date. Then the pups later conceived would have actually had 8-9 days less to develop than the normal gestation period calls for. What difference could it have made in this case when they had over a week less time vs only a day or two less time? Just interesting to think about.

BTW, thanks for your response!

Well I can only share from my experience. Dreamy's most recent litter was a day early from the first due date of the first breeding. The puppies had hair missing on the tops of their feet. Remember I wrote the wrong date on the calender at work and I thought she was a week early. My vet and I talked about the what if. If those pups the oldest ones were a week early they would NOT have been able to make it. Back to the range of peak I quoted from my vet above. I personally like to err on the side of caution by only breeding twice within 3 days. I worry about breeding a bitch that is at peak for 5 days. I am risking the lives of the last pups to be conveived should she go into labor early. Whatever we get in the 2 days of breeding is what I'll take..lolol.

Just to disclose: This is how I prefer to do things.