Just Curious About Breeding

[My Ladybug]

I have a friend that is interested in breeding her 4 pound boy with a 10 pound girl. I don't know the first thing about breeding so I really don't have much info to offer her except not to do it at all! Her mother has bred a few litter of poodles, so I guess she feels confident in the whole whelping.

The dogs are all up to date with all vaccinations, and are both healthy, but they have not been tested for genetic issues. With the female being a big size that doesn't automatically mean that there won't be complications or that the pups won't grow to be as large as the female right? (She's wanting yorkies around 5-7 pounds from this)

She's never been interested in joining this forum so I thought maybe getting informative information specifically for her situation could help her to really think twice about breeding the two. I've contemplated writing this out of fear of comments I would receive, so in her defense I'm just telling you that she is ignorant to all of the complications that could occur and all that goes into getting a good pair to breed as I was before I found this forum. She is not a bad, selfish or greedy person.

I NEVER knew that only breeders should breed. I NEVER heard of backyard breeders. I heard of hobby breeders, but didn't know that they are looked upon as Greeders. I NEVER knew that breeding your dog to have a litter to give to your close friends and family was considered a bad thing. When I first got Ladybug, my future goal was to breed her to give my family yorkies that they could afford being that they were only wanting pets and not show dogs. But joining this forum really educated me on how serious a matter breeding is and I have since changed my mind about it. I plan on showing this thread to her, so I would appreciate your informative comments to help her see what goes in to breeding. Thanks !

[msyorktown]

bump...bump...bump!

[Yorkiemom1]

If she has never been interested in joining this forum, she wont listen to anything people that KNOW what they are doing, have to say. All the time it takes to TRY to explane the excellent questions YOU have asked and she needs to be aware of, take up valuable time....breeders certainly dont mind mentoring people but it is difficult to sit and spend our VALUABLE time trying to explain this crap shoot called breeding, to people that are not interested in learning.

[My Ladybug]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

If she has never been interested in joining this forum, she wont listen to anything people that KNOW what they are doing, have to say. All the time it takes to TRY to explane the excellent questions YOU have asked and she needs to be aware of, take up valuable time....breeders certainly dont mind mentoring people but it is difficult to sit and spend our VALUABLE time trying to explain this crap shoot called breeding, to people that are not interested in learning.

I apologize, I guess I didn't think about wasting peoples time by asking these questions. My friend has never been a computer person, in fact she doesn't even own a computer, but I guess I will try and help her the best I can. Thank you for your time though.

[concretegurl]

Just because the male is smaller it means nothing this is a myth.

Females actually pelvis size is more important than weight.

No dog under 5 pounds should ever be bred-ask any vet.

No health testing-asking for trouble!

Beyond health testing a health gene test should be done now what if there are blue born pups?

Does she know a 12 generation pedigree on these dogs and the health of the lines-she could end up with a litter of seriously 6 neurologically or otherwise genetically (CT, LP, hernias, etc etc) pups and then what?

These tests are cheap!

No excuse for not doing them let alone generally making sure these dogs are breeding quality.

She should seek a mentor, really.

She is taking on risking her females life and risking creating genetically ill pups.


I don't think NO ONE should breed, but there is a minimum of care and precautions that should be taken, and what I listed isn't even the half of it.

If you friend does all that and it's all fine and figures out what else she needs to learn from pregnancy care, to whelping, to creating a puppy contract and health guarantee, spay neuter for the pups, how to pass on AKC registration an register a litter, then awesome.

I just can't understand why so many people throw caution to the wind, and put the horse before the cart.

Being naive is one thing, ignoring common sense is another.

Hope your friend makes the right choices based on the the process and information.

[Samuelsmommie]

Originally Posted by My Ladybug

I apologize, I guess I didn't think about wasting peoples time by asking these questions. My friend has never been a computer person, in fact she doesn't even own a computer, but I guess I will try and help her the best I can. Thank you for your time though.

Please don't give up and don't feel bad for asking questions, even if you are asking for your friend. You clearly care about the breed and want to help your friend understand that breeding is not something you just wake up one day and decide you want to do. I applaud your efforts and really wish I had answers for you (I'm still fairly new). I will say please don't feel like you are waisting people's time by asking questions, because how will any of us learn anything if we never ask questions? Everyone has to start somewhere. Again thank you for taking the time to try and educate your friend. I hope it helps.

[McheleM]

I can honestly say that it is heartbreaking to watch your baby girl go through labor, worrying about her the entire time and then have the puppy not make it.

It would have been worse had my girl not made it.

I learned my lesson and my dogs are getting fixed. Anything can go wrong, and to me, its not worth it.

[My Ladybug]

Originally Posted by Samuelsmommie

Please don't give up and don't feel bad for asking questions, even if you are asking for your friend. You clearly care about the breed and want to help your friend understand that breeding is not something you just wake up one day and decide you want to do. I applaud your efforts and really wish I had answers for you (I'm still fairly new). I will say please don't feel like you are waisting people's time by asking questions, because how will any of us learn anything if we never ask questions? Everyone has to start somewhere. Again thank you for taking the time to try and educate your friend. I hope it helps.

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. If I hand't stumbled upon this forum and read everything about breeding, I can assure you I would be exactly where my friend is right now. I would be trying to find a male to breed my girl with. I love this site and all of the wonderful information I have learned from it. I don't post certain questions as often as I would like because of the responses I sometimes see here. I do have many questions and I do want to learn as much as I can about the yorkie breed. I hope this information will not fall on deaf ears. I will definitely let you know how she responds.

[My Ladybug]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

Just because the male is smaller it means nothing this is a myth.

Females actually pelvis size is more important than weight.

No dog under 5 pounds should ever be bred-ask any vet.

No health testing-asking for trouble!

Beyond health testing a health gene test should be done now what if there are blue born pups?

Does she know a 12 generation pedigree on these dogs and the health of the lines-she could end up with a litter of seriously 6 neurologically or otherwise genetically (CT, LP, hernias, etc etc) pups and then what?


These tests are cheap!

No excuse for not doing them let alone generally making sure these dogs are breeding quality.

She should seek a mentor, really.

She is taking on risking her females life and risking creating genetically ill pups.


I don't think NO ONE should breed, but there is a minimum of care and precautions that should be taken, and what I listed isn't even the half of it.

If you friend does all that and it's all fine and figures out what else she needs to learn from pregnancy care, to whelping, to creating a puppy contract and health guarantee, spay neuter for the pups, how to pass on AKC registration an register a litter, then awesome.

I just can't understand why so many people throw caution to the wind, and put the horse before the cart.

Being naive is one thing, ignoring common sense is another.

Hope your friend makes the right choices based on the the process and information.

Thank you concretegurl. This is just what I needed, a list of things to consider BEFORE breeding. I think at this point just from our conversations, she just does't know what all goes into breeding. I will show her these things here and hopefully this will help her to see that it isn't as easy as just putting two dogs together. I do really appreciate the information you've provided.

[gemy]

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...t-breeder.html

The library has some excellent articles about considerations prior to breeding

I have posted a link above.

The mother controls the size of the pups. So given the mom's weight is not from obesity, then unless she comes from a long line of smaller Yorkies, this potential breeder should not count on small adults.

Pelvic structure is very important in free whelping. A vet should be able to tell if this female has a "good" chance of free whelping. And I would find a reproduction vet to go to.

There are also many threads on here, where I and others have elaborated on the pre breeding tests. And unless you have them done at show clinics where the cost is pretty reasonable the price can easily add up to over $500. Also the male has to be tested for the same things as the female.

I think many folks just think after all dogs are just animals and animals in the wild give birth all the time. Well true, but consider dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years, and where natural selection does still operate in the wild; not so when humans make the decisions regarding breeding. Also true there is a very high incident rate of puppy and dam mortality in the wild. Puppies born with less than ideal structure or with genetic defaults usually will not in the wild survive long enough to mate.

Quite frankly; there is no short or inexpensive way to breed healthy and good representatives of the breed.

For me I just can't see why one would put their female at risk, and the resultant costs both financial and emotional that comes with raising a litter of puppies.

[concretegurl]

Another thing to really consider is the $$$ breeding costs.

[My Ladybug]

[QUOTE=gemy;4033355]http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...t-breeder.html

The library has some excellent articles about considerations prior to breeding

I have posted a link above.

This was an eye opening article! Absolutely anything can happen before during and after breeding. I think this is excellent to share with her. I'm curious to see her reaction after reading all of these different scenarios. Thanks!

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by McheleM

I can honestly say that it is heartbreaking to watch your baby girl go through labor, worrying about her the entire time and then have the puppy not make it.

It would have been worse had my girl not made it.

I learned my lesson and my dogs are getting fixed. Anything can go wrong, and to me, its not worth it.

People often think there is nothing to this...dogs breed, female gets pregnant, puppies are born, little family all does great, babies are sold to new homes, and a great time was had by all! Unfortunately, it does NOT always work out that way.....and Yorkies, as are most toy breeds, are notorious about having whelping issues. You said it perfectly....heart felt words, from first hand experience, a really tough lesson to live through. Thank goodness you didnt loose your girl, which quite often, DOES happen! I would hope the OP can manage to convience her friend to TRY to learn from the YT people, that probably know more about this than she does! It is a kind thing the OP does, but if her friend wont even go to a forum where she can read posts....doesnt even have to write anything, JUST READ!!!.....I dont think she will learn anything from the OP. I am sorry you lost your puppy....but I am so thankful momma survived....it could have been so much worse for you.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by My Ladybug

I have a friend that is interested in breeding her 4 pound boy with a 10 pound girl. I don't know the first thing about breeding so I really don't have much info to offer her except not to do it at all! Her mother has bred a few litter of poodles, so I guess she feels confident in the whole whelping.

(1)The dogs are all up to date with all vaccinations, and are both healthy, but they have not been tested for genetic issues. With the female being a big size that doesn't automatically mean that there won't be complications or that the pups won't grow to be as large as the female right? (She's wanting yorkies around 5-7 pounds from this)

She's never been interested in joining this forum so I thought maybe getting informative information specifically for her situation could help her to really think twice about breeding the two. I've contemplated writing this out of fear of comments I would receive, so in her defense I'm just telling you that she is ignorant to all of the complications that could occur and all that goes into getting a good pair to breed as I was before I found this forum. She is not a bad, selfish or greedy person.

I NEVER knew that only breeders should breed. I NEVER heard of backyard breeders.(2) I heard of hobby breeders, but didn't know that they are looked upon as Greeders. I NEVER knew that breeding your dog to have a litter to give to your close friends and family was considered a bad thing. When I first got Ladybug, my future goal was to breed her to give my family yorkies that they could afford being that they were only wanting pets and not show dogs. But joining this forum really educated me on how serious a matter breeding is and I have since changed my mind about it. I plan on showing this thread to her, so I would appreciate your informative comments to help her see what goes in to breeding. Thanks !

(1) If they have Not been tested for "genetic issues" then she doesn't truly know if they are healthy! If she doesn't know of the health issues in the lines she is breeding, then "healthy" is a very narrow term of limited use in reference to her breeding pair.

(2) For me I refer to myself as a Hobby Breeder. I am also a Show breeder. I never thought Hobby Breeder equated to a "greeder". I'm not sure how you formed this opinion. Perhaps you can share how you formed this opinion. Is there some authoratative body out there, that you have read, that linked a Hobby Breeder to a "greeder"?

[Yorkiemom1]

[quote=My Ladybug;4034138]

Originally Posted by gemy

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...t-breeder.html

The library has some excellent articles about considerations prior to breeding

I have posted a link above.

This was an eye opening article! Absolutely anything can happen before during and after breeding. I think this is excellent to share with her. I'm curious to see her reaction after reading all of these different scenarios. Thanks!

I really do hope your friend listens to you....you can really end up broken hearted with credit cards maxed out, trying to deliver a female that has a baby sideways and cant do it on her own. If she does not recognize when she needs to go for help, she can loose her momma as well as the entire litter. Even if she survives the c-section, she can throw a clot post op and die. When you breed your female, you need to ask yourself, is this female soooo good that I want to risk HER life to try to get babies from her that may or may not be any where as good as she is? And you have to have the money to back it up, in case she does get into trouble.....or the babies need intensive care....you are looking at anywhere from $3000.00 up to probably close to $8000.00, depending how sick everyone, and how aggressive you are trying to save them.