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09-17-2010, 02:28 PM | #1 |
YT 2000 Club Donating Member | The Tests we do I was having a discussion the other day with two of my friends, both breeders, both exhibitors, and we were talking about the pre breeding tests. What is heart-wrenching for all of us, is there are so few genetic tests, markers, to determine if your dog has x,y, or z. In Yorkies, let's take LS for an example. The dam, and the sire, can test clear, and yet an LS puppy is born. In all breeds CERF for PRA, you can test at one year old clean, and at two clean, so you breed, then at 3 or 4 yrs old, you test, and whamoo bangoo, you have PRA. Then what, you've maybe bred that sire or dam, once maybe two or three times. Again no marker found yet for what is generally accepted as a genetic condition. OFA hip elbow, knee. Many have had breeding zero to zero, and gosh darn it we have a grade 2 or grade 3 in a puppy. This is a known poly genetic condition. Where are we with determining how to eliminate this? Further on OFA, it is just not enough to say grade one or two, where are the studies, to help us understand what can or can't be done with Grade one or Two. The rememdies proved effective for joints. For those non breeders out there, I would like to say, we sweat blood and tears, do our best with tests, that have no guanatee, how our beloved puppies will be. We take a risk, with heart in mouth, with passionate love of this breed and health foremost. This is not quite a rant, although it may sound so. More a forum for breeders to share their own concerns, where we could do the most and best impact to guide research.
__________________ Razzle and Dara. Our clan. RIP Karma Dec 24th 2004-July 14 2013 RIP Zoey Jun9 th 2008-May 12 2012. RIP Magic,Mar 26 2006July 1st 2018 |
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09-17-2010, 04:23 PM | #2 |
YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Up North
Posts: 808
| I hear you there!! I know what I spend at the vets on these tests alone and to know that really it means not much. I bile acid test, liver panel, complete blood count, protein/albumin test. Why, to prove that mine are clear but what about the pups? They could still come up with it. Some say, well you have to know your lines. Ok, I do I have a 5 generation line and not one shunt, luxating patella, nothing. Then I use a male from another breeder who has been tested perfectly and together they have a leggs-perthes pup. Where did that come from? Then comes the dreaded, I have spent years on my line, do I spay the remaining 2 girls I own and lose the entire line? Also with that is the ones whos coats do not do as expected, teeth go off when the adults come in, or the toplines go off all after doing the blood work and Penn hips on one (400.00 for those) I have only CERF'd one dog and then he was placed for a coat and size issue about 6 months later. Way too light and had a weird growth spurt after age 1 where he went from almost 6 pounds to 8 pounds. That was a huge loss of money CERF is hard here as the vets have to come up from another state so they are done sporatically but it is getting better now finally. I wish that there were genetic markers that would tell us about these issues. I know I for one would be paying for the testing. Most of these issues are recessive or so they say but I would like to know for certain.
__________________ "The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than you settled for." |
09-17-2010, 04:47 PM | #3 |
Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Mt. Sinai, New York
Posts: 910
| Please don't get me wrong here - but - in reality these tests really don't mean anything. By doing them - you just know that your sire or dam does not have it and not that the puppy you breed will not have it. |
09-17-2010, 04:58 PM | #4 |
Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: USA
Posts: 975
| Not much different than humans. My son had some genetic tests done on himself before having a baby and all they could say was he himself doesnt have a certain disease, but wasnt a guarantee his babies wont. Seems like a waste of money cuz we already knew he was healthy. |
09-17-2010, 05:09 PM | #5 | |
Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Mt. Sinai, New York
Posts: 910
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09-17-2010, 05:23 PM | #6 |
Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: USA
Posts: 975
| Thats a good question cuz testing is not a guarantee--not for the pups and not for the sire or dam. I've spent a lot of money and have no more peace of mind than I did before the tests LOL |
09-17-2010, 05:40 PM | #7 | |
YT 2000 Club Donating Member | Quote:
There is LS, and I am putting that first, because it is a more , much more serious condition than LP1.
__________________ Razzle and Dara. Our clan. RIP Karma Dec 24th 2004-July 14 2013 RIP Zoey Jun9 th 2008-May 12 2012. RIP Magic,Mar 26 2006July 1st 2018 | |
09-17-2010, 05:57 PM | #8 |
YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Up North
Posts: 808
| Ahh but that is the catch 22 I think. If you do not test what does that say about you as a breeder? Especially on YTCA and Yorkietalk? Are you then making sure you have assured that your breeding stock is at least healthy? Without a bile acid MVD may go unnoticed, without hip xrays a case of hip dysplasia could go undetected for a year or 2, same with knees..... So I know the testing does not prove the pups will not have it per say, but it does lessen the chances in the big picture of it. Now I am hearing that pups should be tested prior to placement. Now my vet will not do the BAT till 16 weeks or prefers 6 months so you do not have to retest. So do you hold on to pet quality pups for 4-6 months? I think no. People are already chomping at the bit for a pup at 8-10 weeks! I have had many decided to go with another breeder because my pups stay till 12 weeks. I was fine with it and tried to educate but regardless they chose elsewhere. So that would be the catch 22 for me. I choose to test the parents, give a health guarantee, and stand behind my pups fully. To me that is the best I can do at this point. But as soon as genetic markers are there so will I be in line for testing...
__________________ "The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than you settled for." |
09-17-2010, 06:05 PM | #9 | |
Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Mt. Sinai, New York
Posts: 910
| Quote:
But does it? Everything seems to point to "No". You assure the buyers that the breeding stock is healthy - but if there are no assurances that the puppies will be healthy - then why test? | |
09-17-2010, 06:23 PM | #10 |
Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Mississippi
Posts: 2,564
| From what I've read, LS is thought to be genetic but has not been proven to be. The research has shown LS clear parents can throw an LS pup and LS affected parents can throw a clear pup. It doesn't seem to follow Mendel as I understand it. The thing is, so many diseases and conditions may either be genetic or acquired. The studies on LS in Irish Wolfhounds was for intrahepatic shunts so not sure if that data could be transferred to extrahepatic shunts. In the IW, affected breeding dogs were identified and the incidence was lowered by about 50%, if I remember correctly. I seem to remember something about the incidence rising in the last 30 years or so. The question is.....is that due to better diagnostics and reporting or is there a true rise in cases? What I have taken from various research on health issues is that toy breeds are often more severely affected than larger breeds for certain things. One notable thing is auto-immune disease due to over-vaccination. I think that is largely undisputed. I also feel that introducing toxins into a small dog's system (especially early in life) can have a tremendous negative effect on their health. I'm talking specifically about flea preventatives and heartworm prevention being used before the dog's organs are fully developed and the immune system is immature. With everything that is put into a dog's bloodstream passing through the liver, it's not a stretch to consider these toxic products as being partly to blame for some liver issues. There are practical, conservative protocols that can minimize the risks from these products. How can a breeder be sure the new owner isn't overdoing it with these products, or if their vet isn't overdoing vaccines and administering non-core vaccines or administering too often, especially in the case of the rabies vaccine. And how does a breeder protect themselves from reckless use of these things as far as liability goes while still standing behind their pups? As for identifying pups with compromised livers, I feel that challenging the liver is effective early on, and is practical, since bile acid testing isn't reliable before 5 months of age, the age at which the organs mature. By 'challenging', I mean feeding a pup a high protein food. If the liver is compromised, the ammonia from the increased protein should provoke a reaction that we could associate with liver disease. I also feel that reactions to vaccines are an indicator of compromised health in a pup. To me, testing the parents for something that may or may not be genetic gives a false sense of security. It's no guarantee by any means. I'm just not comfortable with the notion that testing is all we can do for now and just wait for a marker to be found. I feel there are things we can do to gauge the health of a young pup and to prevent un-necessary exposure to toxins that may be a bigger culprit than we have previously acknowledged.
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09-17-2010, 06:28 PM | #11 | |
Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: USA
Posts: 975
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09-17-2010, 06:31 PM | #12 |
Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Mt. Sinai, New York
Posts: 910
| I must say - this has been very interesting reading. Thank you for starting this thread - and thank you to all the posters for your insight. Every day I learn so much from this site. Thanks again. |
09-17-2010, 06:41 PM | #13 |
Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Mississippi
Posts: 2,564
| Thanks...I was a little hesitant to post because so much of it is 'just my opinion'. I am struck by how there seems to be a correlation between the wider use of vaccines and the increased use of preventatives with the increases in cancers, auto immune disease, allergies, and so on. On average, even with the 'better' care we give our dogs, they are not healthier and are not living longer. With vaccines, we are learning that more is not better and I hope we can come to an equal understanding about the monthly toxins that are a part of so many dogs regimen. To assume all these health issues are genetics or bad breeding is shortsighted, to me.
__________________ ORANGUTANS ARE DYING FOR THE SAKE OF CHEAP PALM OIL....AND YOU USE IT!!! http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/ani...m-oil-you.html |
09-17-2010, 11:16 PM | #14 |
Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: vacaville ca usa
Posts: 235
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09-18-2010, 01:45 AM | #15 | |
YT 2000 Club Donating Member | Quote:
__________________ Razzle and Dara. Our clan. RIP Karma Dec 24th 2004-July 14 2013 RIP Zoey Jun9 th 2008-May 12 2012. RIP Magic,Mar 26 2006July 1st 2018 | |
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