Looking for advice

[yorkiemom68]

Well hello to all and thank you in advance for response.I am still quite the newbie I have only become a yorkie owner in the last 6 months.Sir Snuffleupagus "Snuffy" being my first.He is now 6 months and I have fallen head over heals in love.I know that by posting here I may get advice I do not like and trust me I am ok with that I happen to have thick skin so here it goes.I have decided I want to try breeding not for income but for the love of this wonderful breed.I have been a nurse for 20 plus years and in 2003 I had major heart surgery.I have been doing well but my docter's will no longer allow me to work.I have been so depressed this last couple of years. Nothing to love and care for.I did not realize how unimportant I felt.I need to take care of living breathing things its in my blood. I am 40 years old and my children are 18 and 20.My oldest is away at school and the youngest soon to follow.I have read the website so you think you want to become a breeder and omg how horrible at the possibities but I feel I could use my medical background to make a good mom to these babies.Being a nurse I must admit I am one who checks and double checks myself always.So here is my plan,I have searched for a few months for my perfect girl and I think I found her.She came home Friday my little girl Katie.I took her to the vet today for her check-up and shots and told him my plans of breeding her in the future.He felt she would be a great female for breeding. Seeing the he himself owns 2 yorkie I think he has a better understanding of the breed than one who has never own and loved a yorkie. She receive a great report all is well.I do not plan to breed her for at least 18 months and only plan to breed her twice max and only if no problems arise.I then plan to take her puppys to start my breeding program so needless to say 2 years maybe 3 from now I plan to have some grandfurbabies.So I am a student now in learning and would ask for everyone to share with me anything and everything you feel I must know.I am a God fearing christian woman and only want to produce a quality puppy no line breeding and healthy happy babies.I only want akc puppies with champions in the pedigree no futher back than 3 generations.They will be raised in my home and will have 24 hour care. My vet has agreed to be present at the mating process and will delivery himself in my home or the office which ever I prefer.I know for the experienced breeded that sounds silly but I dont have the exp. at this time to feel comfortable without him being present.After reading the article on all the things that could go wrong made the decision to have him on hand lol I know you may also think this is to soon to begin planning if it will be so long before the matings begin but I want to have the time to hand raise my mommies to be.I want to have the special bond with my babies momma lol.But I want to be very well educated and prepared for all things possible.Sorry post was so long but felt I needed to give ya'll enough info to form you thoughts on this subject

[BamaFan121s]

It doesn't sound silly at all. It sounds like you are trying to start something that you feel like you will enjoy. And isn't that important for any breeder? You sound like you have some very respectable goals that you are willing to work to achieve and you are willing to do your research first. THAT is very respectable and unfortunately many don't see it that way.

I would suggest that you read everything you can get your hands on. Learn what breed specific issues plague Yorkies. Learn what issues you need to have health screenings done on, what is genetic, etc.

Find a breeding mentor to work with. He/she will help guide you through the process and help you to gain some first hand experience before you actually start breeding yourself. And most importantly, a mentor will be key in helping you to evaluate the quality of your boy and girl as they mature and helping you determine if they will compliment each other well as a breeding pair.

You are researching first, so it sounds like you are on the right track.

[Woogie Man]

Hello and welcome to Yorkie World!! It sounds like you have a good mindset for someone just starting out. Breeding these wonderful creatures can be one of the most rewarding (though not monetarily) endeavors you will ever pursue but I will tell you it is the rare breeder that hasn't dealt with some heartache along the way.

Your medical background and your vet being a Yorkie owner are both pluses but neither will completely prepare you for breeding. Misty is right in that a mentor will offer you invaluable experience and knowledge that you just won't get anywhere else. The breeders you got your pups from may be able to offer some guidance.

It may be difficult to obtain breeding stock with champion backgrounds without there being line breeding in their pedigree. While there are some champions that are open pedigreed, it's more likely that most champions are the result of line breeding. While it's not something that should be done haphazardly, I think you will see as you go along that line breeding has its place and is not the awful thing some think it is.

Beyond the necessary health testing to ensure you have sound dogs, you will need to develop a critical eye as they mature to see that they are good representations of the breed and to identify any faults. There is no perfect Yorkie and you want to watch that you don't breed two dogs with the same fault. You may find that your male and female may both grow to be beautiful dogs but are not a good match for breeding to each other. They may have a shared fault or may just be different types that may not mesh well together.

A couple of books that I would recommend are The New Complete Yorkshire Terrier by Joan Gordon and The Joy Of Breeding Your Own Show Dog by Ann Seranne. They are both excellent books that I refer to again and again.

Best of luck in attaining your goals. I'm sure I've only scratched the surface and others will add much more. Yorkies are a fascinating breed and no matter your experience, there is always more to learn.

[LibbieLu08]

You don't sound silly. I say go for it. You sound like you have a true passion for it. As for myself. . . . I too want to be a breeder one day. I have a love for this breed and animals in general. Go for it! But first you should talk to a few experience yorkie breeders and see how the whole process works and understand in throughly. Good Luck! Keep us posted

[yorkiemom68]

Thank all of you for your input I greatly appreciate all of you sharing with me.I already have one question what is open pedigreed? I have been researching my babies pedigrees and it looks as if Snuffy and Katie share the same great granddaddy "Jodi's Little Devil Damion" thats 4 generations and that is more close than I would like but I have talked with several breeders in the last couple of months when looking for Katie asking all of them there opinion on what I should be looking for to compliment my line in Snuffy and Eddie even as far as sending them there pedigree to veiw themselfs and here is the advice I got.I was told I needed to find something in the Wee Burgundy line and they both share that with Jodi's little Devel Damion and Katie also has Stardust line.Her mother Jewel and her ancestors are from Canada and the United Kingdom.I really searched and researched before I bought my little girl and I am hoping that I did well but what do you think? Will those two combinations compliment each other? Thank you an dGod bless

[MntSnowBabies]

Being a nurse I'm sure you've seen your share of blood, and other things. One thing that I wasn't told was to watch videos to see a yorkie give birth (textbook with no complications of course). So I suggest to you that you should go to youtube.com and watch some yorkie births. It gives you an idea but doesn't compensate for the real thing.

You sound like you've done so much research. That is a great thing!!! I would like to know how you began researching the yorkie lines?

[yorkiemom68]

Well now I tried to research the lines online which I really had no luck but my breeder had done some research on her babies and was kind enough to pass it on.I have found it to be easier and you are less likely to pull out your hair if you just let akc do it for you I think it is like $12.00.I am 10 generations in on Katie's pedigree thanks to her breeder and 7 back on Snuffy so far the only complaint I have is it is sometimes hard to follow the pedigree with the format at least for me I hope this has helped and good luck researching

[Woogie Man]

Put simply, an open pedigree is one in which any given dog appears only once. A pedigree is basically the dog's family tree. In a hypothetical open pedigree, there are literally billions of genes involved and the results of such breedings are unpredictable, to say the least. You are basically dealing with a deck full of wild cards. Line breeding reduces the number of ancestors in a pedigree, which can help a knowledgeable breeder set desirable traits. This is one of the areas where having a mentor is important. Haphazard line breeding may result in doubling up on undesirable traits and genetic faults. A good working knowledge of genetics is vital in setting desirable traits, whether dominant or recessive, and in avoiding undesirable and sometimes lethal traits.

This is a simplified explanation but it does give you an idea that just putting two dogs together is not the way to start a breeding program. Open pedigrees will reduce the incidence of recessive traits being expressed, but remember that not all recessive traits are undesirable. The books I recommended earlier, along with a knowledgeable mentor, will help you along.

[Woogie Man]

Here's something that explains breeding for traits fairly well.

"BREEDING BY PHENOTYPE

Many breeders plan matings solely on the appearance (phenotype) of a dog and not on its pedigree or the relatedness of the prospective parents. Matings based on appearance are called "assortative matings". There are positive assortative matings (like-to-like) and negative assortative matings (like-to-unlike) for individual traits. Breeders use positive assortative matings when they wish to fix traits, and negative assortative matings when they wish to correct traits or bring in traits the breeding stock may lack.

Some individuals may share desirable characteristics, but they inherit them differently. This is especially true of polygenetic traits, such as ear set, bite or length of forearm. Breeding two phenotypically similar but geno-typically unrelated dogs together would not necessarily reproduce these traits.

Conversely, each individual with the same pedigree will not necessarily look or breed alike. Therefore, breedings should not be planned solely on the basis of the pedigree or appearance alone. Matings should be based on a combination of appearance and ancestry. If you are trying to fix a certain trait - like topline - and it is one you can observe in the parents and the linebred ancestors of two related dogs, then you can be more confident that you will attain your goal.

If a linebreeding produces a puppy with magnificent qualities, but those qualities are not present in any of the ancestors the pup has been linebred on, then the dog may have a wonderful show career, but it may not breed true. Therefore, careful selection of mates is important, but careful selection of puppies from the resultant litter is also important to fulfill your genetic goals.

OUTCROSSING

Outcrossing (matings with a lower inbreeding coefficient than the average for the breed) tends to increase heterozygosity, matching pairs of unrelated genes from different ancestors. Most outcrossing tends to produce non-uniform litters. The exception would be if the parents are so dissimilar that they create a uniformity of heterozygosity. This is what usually occurs in a mismating of two breeds. The resultant litter tends to be uniform, but demonstrates "half-way points" between the dissimilar traits of the parents. Such litters may be phenotypically uniform, but will rarely breed true due to the mix of dissimilar genes.

Outcrossing can be a useful tool to bring in traits that you do not have in your breeding stock. While the parents may be genotypically dissimilar, you should choose a mate that corrects your dog's faults but phenotypically complements your dog's good traits.

It is not unusual to produce an excellent quality dog from an outcrossed litter. The abundance of genetic variability can place all the right pieces in one individual. Many top-winning show dogs are outcrosses. Consequently, however, they may have low inbreeding coefficients and may lack the ability to uniformly pass on their good traits to their offspring. After breeding an outcross, breeders should breed back to their original stock to increase homozygosity and attempt to fix newly acquired traits. "

here's the link for this info..
phenotype

[Mardelin]

Great info provided by Woogie Man. But, in the yorkie world it is not a possibility to breed phenotype to pheno type and know what the final result will be. It can be done with poodles, dobes, etc.

To the original poster, great you're going about this in a systematic, methodical way. As a breeder/exhibitor I suggest you attend seminars, and since your a nurse, canine genetic classes, whelping and breeding seminars. The yorkie breed is a very difficult breed, but very rewarding. I strongly suggest that you attend a few shows to decide your type. In order to set and keep type in the yorkie breed, one should line breed.

You stated above that you found a lil girl. I'm sure your vet will lead you to conduct all the required testing prior to breeding, eyes, ears, heart, kidneys, bile acids.

Good luck to you and take your time.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by yorkiemom68

Well now I tried to research the lines online which I really had no luck but my breeder had done some research on her babies and was kind enough to pass it on.I have found it to be easier and you are less likely to pull out your hair if you just let akc do it for you I think it is like $12.00.I am 10 generations in on Katie's pedigree thanks to her breeder and 7 back on Snuffy so far the only complaint I have is it is sometimes hard to follow the pedigree with the format at least for me I hope this has helped and good luck researching

only the first 3 generations have input to the pups overall traits. Dam and Sire provide 50%, Grandsire and dam provide 12% and great granddam and sire provide 12%. The only time there an exception to the rule is when you see a dog appear several times throughout the pedigree.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Great info provided by Woogie Man. But, in the yorkie world it is not a possibility to breed phenotype to pheno type and know what the final result will be. It can be done with poodles, dobes, etc.

Dog-gone it..I knew I was going to simplify to the point of being wrong LOL. Seriously though, my understanding is that phenotype is the physical expression of gene combinations. The goal of a breeding program is to breed true to desired type. Is breeding for genotype even possible when breeding with open pedigrees (which the OP expressed a desire to do)? How could any trait be homozygous with such pedigrees? It would seem that any trait would be hit or miss with such a program.

I'm glad you responded since you have a better working knowledge than I. One (perhaps over-simplified) question. Could it be said that you are breeding genotype to genotype if successive generations breed true?

My understanding of Yorkies is that Huddersfield Ben was not the first to exhibit the desired characteristics but was the first that was able to pass those traits on to his offspring. Would this not be considered breeding for genotype while similar appearing dogs that did not pass along those traits be considered breeding for phenotype? Though the early breeders didn't use such terms, it appears they had an inherent knowledge of how to breed 'true to type'.

[yorkiemom68]

Oh my lol I really have so very much to learn.Thank you for this new information I will purchase the books listed in above links and will begin studying those.I really need to study the genetics part the most.I am very impressed with the knowledge of the breeders here. Keep sharing I am enjoying talking to people who is like- minded

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Dog-gone it..I knew I was going to simplify to the point of being wrong LOL. Seriously though, my understanding is that phenotype is the physical expression of gene combinations. The goal of a breeding program is to breed true to desired type. Is breeding for genotype even possible when breeding with open pedigrees (which the OP expressed a desire to do)? How could any trait be homozygous with such pedigrees? It would seem that any trait would be hit or miss with such a program.

I'm glad you responded since you have a better working knowledge than I. One (perhaps over-simplified) question. Could it be said that you are breeding genotype to genotype if successive generations breed true?

My understanding of Yorkies is that Huddersfield Ben was not the first to exhibit the desired characteristics but was the first that was able to pass those traits on to his offspring. Would this not be considered breeding for genotype while similar appearing dogs that did not pass along those traits be considered breeding for phenotype? Though the early breeders didn't use such terms, it appears they had an inherent knowledge of how to breed 'true to type'.

Let me try to explain in layman's terms. Breeding genotype to genotype is probably the more sucessful way of doing it, or more precisely line breeding as it is the only way to set type. The downfall of this is that you can box yourself in with nothing left because then you'd be breeding too close, so occassionaly you may have to out-cross, however it should be done with a closely line bred dog.

The yorkie breed is not an easy one, once think we've got one thing down then it's on to the next. It's pretty much a crap shoot, but it's an educated crap shoot.

You're right about Huddersfield Ben, however, we've evolved from him as he really doesn't resemble the yorkie of today, he more resembles the breeds that are now extinct. Coat definately not silk, longer backed and larger in stature. Bred more for his true function. But, you're right we attempt to breed to that dog that has the ability to reproduce his self. Most of us look at our females with a critical eye and evaluate her faults, then proceed to look for that stud that can fix those faults (of course with knowledge of the pedigree and everything behind the stud and bitch).

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by yorkiemom68

Oh my lol I really have so very much to learn.Thank you for this new information I will purchase the books listed in above links and will begin studying those.I really need to study the genetics part the most.I am very impressed with the knowledge of the breeders here. Keep sharing I am enjoying talking to people who is like- minded

yorkiemom68,

There is a Yorkie Roving National Specialty at the end of the month in Memphis, TN.....Check out YTCA.org for details.

Your best bet is to start attending shows......talking to breeders, soak up all you can. Don't even begin to think about breeding until you've found that mentor and know that your goals are down pat (meaning that you've found your type)