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Old 09-09-2008, 08:07 AM   #1
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Cry Congenital vs. genetic Hendrick's house

I realize that I am a new yorkie owner and I don't know as much as you all about these amazing pups, but I do know a lot about Congenital vs. genetic birth defects.
First of all, Scooby is not teacup, he just hit 6 lbs. I did my research and Janice is right, they have great rankings with AKC on their home checks. As for their kennels, I have learned that one Yorkie is a stinker to keep up with, so what would naturally happen when you have more.

Now to the genetic and congenital issue. I have learned that animals and humans work the same on this issue. You see, my son, was born with a Congenital (meaning born with or existing at birth not caused by genetics) heart defect. Due to this, my family has undergone extensive genetic testing and we are all clear. And my second son was perfectly healthy. In other words, while my sons condition is 99% of the time genetic, sometimes it is just congenital and that there was no reason for it to occur at all. According to all the best that Baylor and Methodist have to offer, I can have 300 more kids and they would all be fine even though my son has a condition that is considered genetic in 99% of the cases (just not his). So if such things could occur with perfectly healthy humans, then why not dogs. Genetic (meaning passed down through DNA) and Congenital (meaning occured at birth) do not mean the same thing and all you have to do is look it up in a dictionary. It all seems pretty logical to me.
Now, everything I have read so far, This poor puppy's condition can be either congenital or genetic and the only way to know for sure is to test the parents. BUT, that is just from reading on the internet and not talking to the vets at A&M which I am considering since I still want another puppy and I have had such a wonderful experience with Janice. However, I don't know enough about the dog to find out if they believe this condition was genetic or congenial. Knowing the difference between the two, if it is truly congenital like Bleu's mom stated in her email, then I will have NO problems getting another baby from Hendrick's house, because I can recognize that nature happens sometimes, I live with it everyday.

I am having a very hard time understanding that one sick pup can prove that someone is a bad breeder. I would think that anyone that breeds dogs is going to have a sick one from time to time. I am very sorry for anyone that has received a sick puppy and for the puppies themselves but a sick dog does not make a bad breeder because sometimes, life happens, whether it is good or bad, whether we like it or not.
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:14 AM   #2
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What Blue has is something that would never wish upon any pet owner and I would never take the chance and purchase from them - JIMO
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:27 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by scoobymom View Post

I am having a very hard time understanding that one sick pup can prove that someone is a bad breeder. I would think that anyone that breeds dogs is going to have a sick one from time to time. I am very sorry for anyone that has received a sick puppy and for the puppies themselves but a sick dog does not make a bad breeder because sometimes, life happens, whether it is good or bad, whether we like it or not.
I agree with this statement and will add how the breeder responds after being notified would influence my opinion on their breeding program.

That being said...unless I was 100% sure whether the condition you're referencing here is congenital vs genetic...I wouldn't purchase a puppy sired or whelped by the same two parents.
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:34 AM   #4
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I agree with this statement and will add how the breeder responds after being notified would influence my opinion on their breeding program.

That being said...unless I was 100% sure whether the condition you're referencing here is congenital vs genetic...I wouldn't purchase a puppy sired or whelped by the same two parents.
Everything I have read screams congenital but of course that is all internet and not vet. I would like to see if the vets at A&M said Congenital or Genetic because I ahv eno doubt that Janice will show me all of her gentic testing paperwork if I asked.
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:47 AM   #5
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If I recall correctly, Bleu aside, this breeder had alot of very questionable elements on their website...things that most look at as red flags and breeding practices that most don't agree with. In addition to the things that Deb mentioned. So I don't think that opinions on this breeder are being based off that situation alone.
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:51 AM   #6
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Everything I have read screams congenital but of course that is all internet and not vet. I would like to see if the vets at A&M said Congenital or Genetic because I ahv eno doubt that Janice will show me all of her gentic testing paperwork if I asked.
Well if you have no doubt she'd share it....ask.

I don't think the vets will share specific information regarding Bleu's condition without his owner's permission...at least that's the way it works at my vet's.
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:56 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobymom View Post
I realize that I am a new yorkie owner and I don't know as much as you all about these amazing pups, but I do know a lot about Congenital vs. genetic birth defects.
First of all, Scooby is not teacup, he just hit 6 lbs. I did my research and Janice is right, they have great rankings with AKC on their home checks. As for their kennels, I have learned that one Yorkie is a stinker to keep up with, so what would naturally happen when you have more.

Now to the genetic and congenital issue. I have learned that animals and humans work the same on this issue. You see, my son, was born with a Congenital (meaning born with or existing at birth not caused by genetics) heart defect. Due to this, my family has undergone extensive genetic testing and we are all clear. And my second son was perfectly healthy. In other words, while my sons condition is 99% of the time genetic, sometimes it is just congenital and that there was no reason for it to occur at all. According to all the best that Baylor and Methodist have to offer, I can have 300 more kids and they would all be fine even though my son has a condition that is considered genetic in 99% of the cases (just not his). So if such things could occur with perfectly healthy humans, then why not dogs. Genetic (meaning passed down through DNA) and Congenital (meaning occured at birth) do not mean the same thing and all you have to do is look it up in a dictionary. It all seems pretty logical to me.
Now, everything I have read so far, This poor puppy's condition can be either congenital or genetic and the only way to know for sure is to test the parents. BUT, that is just from reading on the internet and not talking to the vets at A&M which I am considering since I still want another puppy and I have had such a wonderful experience with Janice. However, I don't know enough about the dog to find out if they believe this condition was genetic or congenial. Knowing the difference between the two, if it is truly congenital like Bleu's mom stated in her email, then I will have NO problems getting another baby from Hendrick's house, because I can recognize that nature happens sometimes, I live with it everyday.

I am having a very hard time understanding that one sick pup can prove that someone is a bad breeder. I would think that anyone that breeds dogs is going to have a sick one from time to time. I am very sorry for anyone that has received a sick puppy and for the puppies themselves but a sick dog does not make a bad breeder because sometimes, life happens, whether it is good or bad, whether we like it or not.
Thanks for the informative post, I wasn't aware of this.

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Originally Posted by BamaFan121s View Post
If I recall correctly, Bleu aside, this breeder had alot of very questionable elements on their website...things that most look at as red flags and breeding practices that most don't agree with. In addition to the things that Deb mentioned. So I don't think that opinions on this breeder are being based off that situation alone.

Is this the breeder you all are talking about? Hendrick House Kennel - Yorkshire Terriers Yorkie Puppies Tiny Teacup or Tiny Toy Yorkies. Could you point out the red flags, and other things?
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:17 AM   #8
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Is this the breeder you all are talking about? Hendrick House Kennel - Yorkshire Terriers Yorkie Puppies Tiny Teacup or Tiny Toy Yorkies. Could you point out the red flags, and other things?
Yes, that is the one. There have been severl threads about these breeders lately, some locked for heated comments.
Red flags to many such as:
- purposely breeding "tiny-teacups" and from small mommas "Our dams are 3-6 pounds in size and our sires are 2 to 4 pounds"
- guarantee only covers life threatening congenial defects--what about those genetic but not life threatening that can be both heart breaking and costly in medical care?

I know nothing of the Blue situation, but I know the story has been told and both sides have commented on it in recent, locked threads. So that is open for others to interpret as they wish.
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:30 AM   #9
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Genetic defect
The AVMA statement refers specifically to correction of genetic defects. By definition genetic defects are a pathologic condition of proven genetic origin. The gene responsible for inheritance is known for only four genetic defects in the horse: hyperkalemic periodic paralysis in the Quarter Horse, lethal white syndrome in the Paint Horse, combined immunodeficiency in Arabian horses (1), and hereditary junctional mechanobullous disease in Belgian horses (2). If these diseases were correctable surgically, which they currently are not, their correction should be accompanied by sterilization.

Congenital defect
All undesirable traits and pathologic conditions present at birth were at one time thought to be entirely genetic in origin. Present-day knowledge has evolved to the point that we now know that many, if not most, congenital defects are the result of intra-uterine events that results from extra-uterine influences. Viruses and toxins are well documented to cause congenital defects (3, 4). Certain conditions that were previously thought to be genetic are now suspected, with good evidence, to be created by viral or toxic insults. Contracted flexor tendons in newborn foals have been proven to be created by toxic influences in some instances (5). Arthrogryposis and cerebellar hypoplasia, are other diseases that have suspected infectious or toxic causes because this link has been proven in other species (3, 4). Congenital defects do not indicate inheritance; they simply indicate that the defect was present at birth.
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:47 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by BamaFan121s View Post
Yes, that is the one. There have been severl threads about these breeders lately, some locked for heated comments.
Red flags to many such as:
- purposely breeding "tiny-teacups" and from small mommas "Our dams are 3-6 pounds in size and our sires are 2 to 4 pounds"
- guarantee only covers life threatening congenial defects--what about those genetic but not life threatening that can be both heart breaking and costly in medical care?

I know nothing of the Blue situation, but I know the story has been told and both sides have commented on it in recent, locked threads. So that is open for others to interpret as they wish.
Lol, don't want to get this thread locked, another member and I have been discussing starting a thread on red flags, and what to look for, so this was on my mind. Oh, I didn't even see the 3 ½ pounder until you mentioned it, most of the dams are 4 ¾ or bigger. I really feel for the breeder who has to attract people on this issue of size, and I wish people would consider other qualities a Yorkie possesses besides it's tininess. Yes, breeding a 3 1/2 pounder is a huge red flag.

I am an advocate of good breeding practices, and very few breeders pass, my tests, people buy from breeders all the time that I would never endorse. However, it does seem that one sick pup should not make or break a breeder. What did the breeder do when she learned of the illness? Was there any offer of a new dog or money returned? Did she alter her breeding program so the chances of this happening again would be lessoned? Whenever anyone receives a puppy that has serious defects, they are going to be extremely emotional about this. This is a terribly sad situation, and I hope the breeder has learned from this experience.
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:49 AM   #11
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Genetic defect
The AVMA statement refers specifically to correction of genetic defects. By definition genetic defects are a pathologic condition of proven genetic origin. The gene responsible for inheritance is known for only four genetic defects in the horse: hyperkalemic periodic paralysis in the Quarter Horse, lethal white syndrome in the Paint Horse, combined immunodeficiency in Arabian horses (1), and hereditary junctional mechanobullous disease in Belgian horses (2). If these diseases were correctable surgically, which they currently are not, their correction should be accompanied by sterilization.

Congenital defect
All undesirable traits and pathologic conditions present at birth were at one time thought to be entirely genetic in origin. Present-day knowledge has evolved to the point that we now know that many, if not most, congenital defects are the result of intra-uterine events that results from extra-uterine influences. Viruses and toxins are well documented to cause congenital defects (3, 4). Certain conditions that were previously thought to be genetic are now suspected, with good evidence, to be created by viral or toxic insults. Contracted flexor tendons in newborn foals have been proven to be created by toxic influences in some instances (5). Arthrogryposis and cerebellar hypoplasia, are other diseases that have suspected infectious or toxic causes because this link has been proven in other species (3, 4). Congenital defects do not indicate inheritance; they simply indicate that the defect was present at birth.

Great post, I never understood the differences before.
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:52 AM   #12
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Health Issues In Toy Dogs

Atlantoaxial Subluxation
(hypoplasia of the dens)
by Leanne Bertani
This is not a common disorder, but when it does occur, it can be a very difficult experience for the dog, owner and breeder.


Definition
Atlantoaxial Subluxation is an instability of the first and second vertebrae in the neck. It takes its name from the proper name of the first cervical vertebrae (the atlas) and the second vertebrae (the axis). The lack of stability causes compression of the spinal cord that results in pain or paralysis.

Cause
This condition can be caused by trauma in any dog, but is more often seen as either a congenital or developmental malformation in small breeds
. It has even been called "unavoidable" in small breeds by some veterinary authors. Other authors believe it is most likely related to a genetic vascular insufficiency that allows at least part of the dens to be reabsorbed.

Here are some articles about genetic vs congenital

With this info would I ever breed the same parents again? NEVER !
I wouldn't want to take a chance. It sounds to me that 1 pup could have just had a problem while developing and it might never happen again. Genetics is a tricky thing and it seems like you can never find a 100% fact about congenital vs genetic and whether parents are the problem or not when it comes to congenital defects. I say better safe that sorry. I'm not going to comment about the breeder, just thought I would give you some info I found on the net.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:06 AM   #13
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If you note all the threads have been about one dog.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:09 AM   #14
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Lol, don't want to get this thread locked, another member and I have been discussing starting a thread on red flags, and what to look for, so this was on my mind. Oh, I didn't even see the 3 ½ pounder until you mentioned it, most of the dams are 4 ¾ or bigger. I really feel for the breeder who has to attract people on this issue of size, and I wish people would consider other qualities a Yorkie possesses besides it's tininess. Yes, breeding a 3 1/2 pounder is a huge red flag.

I am an advocate of good breeding practices, and very few breeders pass, my tests, people buy from breeders all the time that I would never endorse. However, it does seem that one sick pup should not make or break a breeder. What did the breeder do when she learned of the illness? Was there any offer of a new dog or money returned? Did she alter her breeding program so the chances of this happening again would be lessoned? Whenever anyone receives a puppy that has serious defects, they are going to be extremely emotional about this. This is a terribly sad situation, and I hope the breeder has learned from this experience.
My understanding from reading the posts was that a new puppy was offered as a replacement and refused.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:20 AM   #15
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What Blue has is something that would never wish upon any pet owner and I would never take the chance and purchase from them - JIMO
I think this just adds to my confusion. I would never want a sick dog period, or one with what Bleu has. However, can you asure me that there are breeders out there that have never had a sick puppy? What about the breeder where you got your babies? They have never had a problem? That is the point that I am trying to make.

If the problem is just a fluke and not genetic then how can you blame the breeder? This is where my confusion lies.
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