In-Breeding what comes of it????

[jennylee333]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

It is a matter of odds.....Breeders try to tip the odds in their favor and produce sound pups...there are a list of factors in doing this...not just genes.
When you inbreed, you reduce your odds..visialize a pot full of genes, with each breeding you have to stick you hand in a pull out sets of genes for a puppy..when the gene pool is reduced by so many of the identical ancestors, your odds of pulling out the bad genes are greatly increased...I have yet to find any line with no faults...the worst you may get is bad bites or poor top lines..BUT it will bother you greatly if you are serious about breeding..you will look at that undershot jaw, kick yourself..and God forbid you get a life threathening problem..your life will be nothing but stress, worry and tears.

He may sire sound puppies, he may not, you have to gamble and find out..I perfer to tilt the odds in my favor..I can not take the stress of a seriously ill puppy...been there, done that..and have the scars on my heart to prove it..

PS..I have never in 35 yrs seen an inbreed Yorkie not produce problems at some point, especially if their offspring are bred.

Thank You...this makes sense to me. I am a little slow sometimes...LOL

I have just been playing this over and over in my head and I am thankful for all the advice.

[gardenyorkies]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

I am sick to death of hearing a breed potential has been tested and found clear of everything. There are so many problems that crop up in genetics and there is NO tests available for it...sure a Yorkie can have a perfectly healthy liver, no signs of a shunt..but that does not mean 100% he will never sire a liver shunt puppy..there is no genetic test for LS easily available to the breeder...you take your chances.

He can have perfect knees, but he can sire luxating patellas, Legg Calve Perthes, PRA, the list is endless.
How about a bad bite..both parents can have perfect bites and produce a pup or pups with under or over bites..it is a recessive gene.

When you select an inbred stud for your breeding program, you are NOT "trying" one breeding...a stud can sire dozens of puppies, a one time breeding may produce 3 or 4 pups...I would avoid an inbred stud or bitch at any cost...


So, in order to keep the line strong and not tempting Mother Nature..and that woman is a bitch!! we avoid inbreeding..or the wise breeder does...it will catch up to you at some point, always does...How do you think the Liver shunt problem spread in the first place..INBREEDING!!! Yeah, I'm screaming..sorry.

...I totally agree with Pat on this one!...Liver shunt is so prevelant in our breed that inbreeding is just going to make it more prevelant!...I am praying that someday there will be a genetic test to help rid the Yorkshire Terrier of this and other health problems!...I would not use this stud!

[Thorsmomma]

Originally Posted by jennylee333

I am trying to learn and I was REALLY hoping that the whole screaming thing would not happen............so much for that.....How is anyone supposed to learn if they always get the screaming thing??????????????

This is why I did not start posting until a short time ago....And will probably STOP posting....then every one can get mad because I am breeding in the DARK....I have really learned a lot from this site but, there are some questions that are very specific the the situation.

Thank You to the replies that are trying to be informative.

Hi there,
Be patient, and keep researching even when you think you've got a good grasp on your questions because there always seems to be more out there. I wouldn't take it so personally about the 'yelling'. I doubt she was 'screaming' at you. More likely screaming at the act of inbreeding. Cheer up, and take things a little more light hearted. If you don't let yourself get run off by a few CAPS, then you're bound to find some great mentors and information here!!
Good Luck!

[topknot]

I have years of experience too - and would never, never do an in-breeding. I am totally responsible for each pup I bring into the world. I do not want to hurt any pup, by knowing that I might cause a problem. No way!
I would leave this only to the breeders that have had a life time in producing champions and know the true science of breeding.

[gardenyorkies]

I personally think it was a good question by the op!...Because she asked the question many others will learn what not to do!...Hopefully it will help!

[jennylee333]

Originally Posted by topknot

I have years of experience too - and would never, never do an in-breeding. I am totally responsible for each pup I bring into the world. I do not want to hurt any pup, by knowing that I might cause a problem. No way!
I would leave this only to the breeders that have had a life time in producing champions and know the true science of breeding.

This is exactly why I asked the question....I wanted to know what happens with his offspring!!! I do not want to hurt the pup or the new parents!

[bjh]

Personally, when I inbred two yorkies 10 years ago, it was because I did not know any better and I had been told it was fine to do. These were not show dogs but they had some champion bloodline. Luckily I did not have any problems from the breeding. Knowing what I know today I would not inbred again but I do feel that line breeding is sometimes better than out crossing. There are many risks in any breeding that you do and sometimes no matter how careful you plan your breedings you can have bad results. Just for learning purposes I have attached a picture of my Little Man, pictured on the left. He is the product of a father to daughter breeding. Pictured on the right is Shorty, he is the son of Little Man. The bitch I bred Little Man to was totally unrelated to him, an outcross breeding. Little Man is ten years old and Shorty is 8 years old. I love them to pieces even if they aren't show dogs. Now just speaking from my heart. If I had had a mentor, YT and all the wonderful advise that I am seeing on here now, I would be much further ahead in my breeding program. We all make mistakes but we just have to learn from them and more forward.

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Okay let's say that a genetic defect is associated with a sex linked gene. As a product of an inbreeding he would than be homozygous recessive for that gene. Because it is a sex linked gene it is carried by the male but shown by the female. He is bred and his daughter now is affected by this genetic defect. Inbreeding may make him prepotent for some excellent qualities but it would also make him prepotent for any bad ones that was in his line as well.

Yay! Another nerd like me on this thread! And I say it in the nicest way possible

[C C Kent]

This subject has been discussed in previous threads but this one has been especially good. Thanks to the OP for the thread and to all of the good opinions, well founded and well stated.

[JaLaYorkieGirl]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

I am sick to death of hearing a breed potential has been tested and found clear of everything. There are so many problems that crop up in genetics and there is NO tests available for it...sure a Yorkie can have a perfectly healthy liver, no signs of a shunt..but that does not mean 100% he will never sire a liver shunt puppy..there is no genetic test for LS easily available to the breeder...you take your chances.

He can have perfect knees, but he can sire luxating patellas, Legg Calve Perthes, PRA, the list is endless.
How about a bad bite..both parents can have perfect bites and produce a pup or pups with under or over bites..it is a recessive gene.

When you select an inbred stud for your breeding program, you are NOT "trying" one breeding...a stud can sire dozens of puppies, a one time breeding may produce 3 or 4 pups...I would avoid an inbred stud or bitch at any cost...

So, in order to keep the line strong and not tempting Mother Nature..and that woman is a bitch!! we avoid inbreeding..or the wise breeder does...it will catch up to you at some point, always does...How do you think the Liver shunt problem spread in the first place..INBREEDING!!! Yeah, I'm screaming..sorry.

Thank you Pat!!!
Excellent post

[katelin]

Originally Posted by bjh

Personally, when I inbred two yorkies 10 years ago, it was because I did not know any better and I had been told it was fine to do. These were not show dogs but they had some champion bloodline. Luckily I did not have any problems from the breeding. Knowing what I know today I would not inbred again but I do feel that line breeding is sometimes better than out crossing. There are many risks in any breeding that you do and sometimes no matter how careful you plan your breedings you can have bad results. Just for learning purposes I have attached a picture of my Little Man, pictured on the left. He is the product of a father to daughter breeding. Pictured on the right is Shorty, he is the son of Little Man. The bitch I bred Little Man to was totally unrelated to him, an outcross breeding. Little Man is ten years old and Shorty is 8 years old. I love them to pieces even if they aren't show dogs. Now just speaking from my heart. If I had had a mentor, YT and all the wonderful advise that I am seeing on here now, I would be much further ahead in my breeding program. We all make mistakes but we just have to learn from them and more forward.

[sweetsophia]

What is the difference between "inbreeding" and "linebreeding"? How closely bred is inbreeding vs. linebreeding? I know alot of show dogs come from lines that are linebred and it was my understanding that as long as you are doubling up on dogs in a pedigree that have the qualities you want to see in your puppies or qualities that one of the parents are lacking that is a good thing? Is this wrong?

[bjh]

Here is an article that explains the different types of breeding:
Types of Breeding: Inbreeding, Line-breeding, outcrossing, outbreeding

While inbreeding is not recommended for the inexperienced, I must add that if it were not for inbreeding and close line breeding, we would not have most of the breeds we have today. Most people have a great misunderstanding about inbreeding and think that all inbred dogs are nuts or have something terribly wrong with them. I found this to be very untrue.

Line breeding is breeding more distantly related dogs, grandparents, cousins, aunts and uncles. Even line breeding has to be monitored closely because your gene pool can still get too small. Even the best breeders that line breed will bring in different bloodlines ever so often.

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by bjh

Here is an article that explains the different types of breeding:
Types of Breeding: Inbreeding, Line-breeding, outcrossing, outbreeding

While inbreeding is not recommended for the inexperienced, I must add that if it were not for inbreeding and close line breeding, we would not have most of the breeds we have today. Most people have a great misunderstanding about inbreeding and think that all inbred dogs are nuts or have something terribly wrong with them. I found this to be very untrue.

Line breeding is breeding more distantly related dogs, grandparents, cousins, aunts and uncles. Even line breeding has to be monitored closely because your gene pool can still get too small. Even the best breeders that line breed will bring in different bloodlines ever so often.

I agree..there was a time when very close breedings were useful and needed to set type etc..but most agree it is not wise today. There was an excelllent article a few years ago in the "The Yorkshire Terrier" Mag..regarding this subject and no longer the need to do so.
I am old enough to remember when most did not outcross..I was discouraged from outcrossing when I started...but breeding type to type is a good breeding today I find..really produced some nice potentials in Canada for a friend.


To the OP...I was reading this thread to my husband and he said I should tell you an experince I had early on...
There was no Internet, of course, no breed forums, no where to learn anything, books on Yorkie breeding still do not exist..

I decided to go where "they" gathered..a dog show. I went up to Johnny Robinson (Trivar, a foundation breeder) I said..."I would like to buy a female to breed to my male, she must be very nice and produce nice puppies"...Johnny asked where I got my male? I told him Gus came from a good breeder (he had a pedigree) and I got him from a pet shop...actually, I got him from someone who bought him from a pet shop.

Johnny's partner, Morris, all but went into cardiac arrest, his eyes glazed over and he had to walk away...Johnny, simply shook his head and did not reply...I guess he figured there was no use, I was hopeless. We later became friends and I bought a nice bitch from him and used stud service quite often to help me improve. My first champion goes back to Trivar.

Any question, any poster has asked about breeding, showing etc..on YT, I have actually asked in person to an exhibitor at a show and I am still alive to tell it...but if you are serious about the breed, nothing will stop you...and I am a declawed pussy cat, compared to what you will come up against, beleive me.

[KYBLUE]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

I agree..there was a time when very close breedings were useful and needed to set type etc..but most agree it is not wise today. There was an excelllent article a few years ago in the "The Yorkshire Terrier" Mag..regarding this subject and no longer the need to do so.
I am old enough to remember when most did not outcross..I was discouraged from outcrossing when I started...but breeding type to type is a good breeding today I find..really produced some nice potentials in Canada for a friend.


To the OP...I was reading this thread to my husband and he said I should tell you an experince I had early on...
There was no Internet, of course, no breed forums, no where to learn anything, books on Yorkie breeding still do not exist..

I decided to go where "they" gathered..a dog show. I went up to Johnny Robinson (Trivar, a foundation breeder) I said..."I would like to buy a female to breed to my male, she must be very nice and produce nice puppies"...Johnny asked where I got my male? I told him Gus came from a good breeder (he had a pedigree) and I got him from a pet shop...actually, I got him from someone who bought him from a pet shop.

Johnny's partner, Morris, all but went into cardiac arrest, his eyes glazed over and he had to walk away...Johnny, simply shook his head and did not reply...I guess he figured there was no use, I was hopeless. We later became friends and I bought a nice bitch from him and used stud service quite often to help me improve. My first champion goes back to Trivar.

Any question, any poster has asked about breeding, showing etc..on YT, I have actually asked in person to an exhibitor at a show and I am still alive to tell it...but if you are serious about the breed, nothing will stop you...and I am a declawed pussy cat, compared to what you will come up against, beleive me.

very nicely said