how young is too young to test for liver shunt?? - YorkieTalk.com Forums

lulababy · 07-25-2008, 06:28 PM

I am having some issues with my 13 week old 18 ounce puppy. He is not eating enough or drinking enough and is losing weight, and apparently he is having some other liver shunt symptoms. Everyone is saying that I should go take him to test his bile acid asap, like tomorrow. I was wondering if he was too tiny to do this test? What is the smallest youve ever tested a pup for liver shunt and how did they take it? What is your suggestion? My guy has had one bad hypo attack in the week ive had him where i had to rush him to the vet, fyi. This is the thread if you want to catch up: puppy not eating or drinking enough

Please let me know your opinions

MyFairLacy · 07-25-2008, 07:27 PM

First step is taking him to the vet for a good checkup and talk to your vet about his symtoms. if you truly feel he is exhibiting liver shunt symptoms, then I would definitely do a bile acid test. Fasting is no longer required so it's much safer than it was in the past due to hypoglycemia. Before his next meal is due, a blood sample will be taken. He will then be fed and two hours later another blood sample will be taken. This test is no more risky than a routine blood draw for a blood panel. If your vet is experienced with tiny puppies and is familiar with the procedures for a BAT then your puppy should do fine for the test. And if you truly think there might be a posibility of liver shunt, the earlier he is diagnosed the sooner as you can start treatment. Otherwise at his size, he could quickly become too sick to be treated

Here is the most current update from Dr. Sharon Centers on liver shunt and Bile Acid Testing http://www.yorkiefoundation.org/purina1.pdf

Dr. Center's once said that 16 weeks was the ideal time to test but has now revised that to 18 weeks. However, if he is showing symptoms of liver shunt, a BAT should be done.

Cookie2 · 07-25-2008, 09:01 PM

I know that some people are saying that you should deffinately have the puppy tested now. I'm just giving my honest opinion here: Since this puppy is so tiny I would NOT test at this moment ,however I WOULD start ...just as a precaution ,Syringe feeding a LOW protien canned food such as Hills L/D, This puppy NEEDs to eat and many here have had to force feed/syringe feed a puppy until it begins to eat on it's own.

I do agree that a Bile Acid test shouldbe done when buying a yorkie BUT... not on such a tiny.There are several reasons why the puppy is having these symptoms. Of course some of these symptoms could be because of Liver Shunt,ENCEPHALITIS ,ear infection and so on.

Do you know if your breeder has done a Bile Acid test on the mom and dad of this puppy .If she's a responsible breeder I'm sure she has tested the dogs in her breeding program.If the breeder has,then I would ask for a copy...

Genie
Cookie,Lola,Angel & Lucky

Yorkieluv · 07-25-2008, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

First step is taking him to the vet for a good checkup and talk to your vet about his symtoms. if you truly feel he is exhibiting liver shunt symptoms, then I would definitely do a bile acid test. Fasting is no longer required so it's much safer than it was in the past due to hypoglycemia. Before his next meal is due, a blood sample will be taken. He will then be fed and two hours later another blood sample will be taken. This test is no more risky than a routine blood draw for a blood panel. If your vet is experienced with tiny puppies and is familiar with the procedures for a BAT then your puppy should do fine for the test. And if you truly think there might be a posibility of liver shunt, the earlier he is diagnosed the sooner as you can start treatment. Otherwise at his size, he could quickly become too sick to be treated

Here is the most current update from Dr. Sharon Centers on liver shunt and Bile Acid Testing http://www.yorkiefoundation.org/purina1.pdf

Dr. Center's once said that 16 weeks was the ideal time to test but has now revised that to 18 weeks. However, if he is showing symptoms of liver shunt, a BAT should be done.

kpstoybox · 07-25-2008, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cookie2

I know that some people are saying that you should deffinately have the puppy tested now. I'm just giving my honest opinion here: Since this puppy is so tiny I would NOT test at this moment ,however I WOULD start ...just as a precaution ,Syringe feeding a LOW protien canned food such as Hills L/D, This puppy NEEDs to eat and many here have had to force feed/syringe feed a puppy until it begins to eat on it's own.

I do agree that a Bile Acid test shouldbe done when buying a yorkie BUT... not on such a tiny.There are several reasons why the puppy is having these symptoms. Of course some of these symptoms could be because of Liver Shunt,ENCEPHALITIS ,ear infection and so on.

Do you know if your breeder has done a Bile Acid test on the mom and dad of this puppy .If she's a responsible breeder I'm sure she has tested the dogs in her breeding program.If the breeder has,then I would ask for a copy...

Genie
Cookie,Lola,Angel & Lucky

I agree with Genie. I would be petrified to bile acid test such a tiny little thing. I seriously would not know what to do if I were in your position.
With that said...if his lack of eating and drinking is severe enough that it could pose a possible risk to his life...then you may have no choice but to have him tested.

I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do.

BlondeYorkieMom · 07-25-2008, 10:00 PM

I don't know anything about Liver Shunts, but I want to say that my heart goes out to you and Bam Bam. I hope he starts feeling better and it isn't anything serious

NanaDtreasures · 07-26-2008, 03:44 AM

I want to tell you I'm saying a little prayer for your Little guy.
I hope he does better soon.
Be very careful about testing,please read what happened to Roses lil Teaser

That being said...
I want to tell you what happened to me this week

I had a young girl 20 years old call me from Toledo Ohio, to see a girl puppy.
She had just lost her puppy the day before.

She had bought a 10 week old Yorkie from a "professional breeder" who showed her dogs near her Toledo home
This little girl was just ONE POUND !!!
They ask all the right questions .
The breeder told her that the only problem this little girl had was "sometimes she SHOOK and needed vitamins"
I was furious just her telling me that someone would sell a 1 lb 10 week old puppy!!! (I would NEVER sell a 1 pounder , even at 12 weeks !!!!! )

Within 12 hours her little puppy was dead.
The vet said it was liver shunt.
VERY VERY bad liver shunt.
This breeder met her at the vets where she died.
This was a "professional breeder" she had show dogs and bred tinies.

This young girl wanted a teeny tinie so bad...then this happened
She said ...I loved this little puppy so much even thou I just had her 12 hours.

She got one of Nalas girls....bigger but healthy.
People should test their adult dogs.
NO ONE should breed or sell sick adults or puppies
Its wrong and heartbreaking !!!!

Susan123 · 07-26-2008, 04:37 AM

If your breeder doesn't think he has liver shunt, I would not test him. He's so small it could do more harm than good. I suggest syringing him a few cc'c of science diet a/d mixed with a little water. If you do this every 2 hours, he'll likely be fine. Unless it is L/S or something else. Wait a while, don't test unless you absolutely have to. Which I don't think you have to do at this point.

The symptoms could have been caused by the dehydration.

Cookie2 · 07-26-2008, 06:37 AM

Also something else you mentioned. Your puppy is NOT drinking water.
One of the Liver shunt symptom is a dog drinking too much water
This may be something else.I'm truly hoping it is.
Not eating ,Not drinking is a symptom of many things

A puppy that is with an empty stomach and dehydrated will obviously be weak,sleep more often and not be as playful.

I hope you get answers real soon. Bringing a new puppy home should be a happy occasion and I'm just really sorry you are going through this instead.

Genie
Cookie,Lola,Angel& Lucky

Yorkieluv · 07-26-2008, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susan123

If your breeder doesn't think he has liver shunt, I would not test him. He's so small it could do more harm than good. I suggest syringing him a few cc'c of science diet a/d mixed with a little water. If you do this every 2 hours, he'll likely be fine. Unless it is L/S or something else. Wait a while, don't test unless you absolutely have to. Which I don't think you have to do at this point.

The symptoms could have been caused by the dehydration.

If by any chance, it is liver shunt a/d will cause more symptoms. It's very, very high in protein (on a dry matter basis)...Somewhere around 40% and contains all the wrong kinds of protein.

bjh · 07-26-2008, 07:19 AM

My recommendation is that you have a full blood panel done asap. If the blood panel indicates liver problems then go from there. I would not be giving him chicken because if he does have a compromised liver the chicken would be bad for him. I do not feel that it is good giving them Nutri-cal all the time because that can actually cause blood sugar problems. I highly recommend Pet-tinic which is a liquid vitamin that vets sell. Also, adding a little corn syrup to his water would help him. You have to get him eating well. What dry food are you feeding him? You could try grinding up the dry food in a blender and letting him eat that. Theses tiny babies seem to like it better that way. Another option is to boil some eggs and give him 1/2 hard boiled egg, smashed up with about a teaspoon of sweet potato and a teaspoon of cottage cheese. You can also buy the baby food chicken, sweet potatoes, green beans, peas, etc and mix a little of that together for him.

The most important thing is to find out if his liver is compromised or if something else is going on. What vaccinations has your puppy had? Has he had any recently. Often vaccinations can cause serious side effects, especially with your baby being so little. If he has had vaccinations recently then you may get false results from the blood tests and the bat test. I highly recommend you find a vet that is somewhat familiar with liver shunt and take it from there. If your puppy does have a liver shunt he needs to be on a special diet right away to get him stabilized. Not many vets are qualified to do the liver shunt surgery and it is very costly and there are no guarantee your puppy would survive the surgery as young as he is. I just pray that your baby will okay. Please keep us updated.

Ladymom · 07-26-2008, 07:45 AM

Dr. Center has recently revised her protocol for bile acid testing from sixteen to eighteen weeks being the youngest age to have it done. She has found that the organs just aren't developed enough before 18 weeks and false negatives are possible.

Bile acids tests are perfectly safe, just a simple blood draw. The danger is in NOT getting one done.

This new article by Dr. Center (June 2008) is a must read for all Yorkie owners.

http://www.yorkiefoundation.org/purina1.pdf

011011 · 07-26-2008, 09:45 AM

My recommendation is that you have a full blood panel done asap. If the blood panel indicates liver problems then go from there.

I agree

chattiesmom · 07-26-2008, 10:36 AM

If you trust Bam Bam's vet I would take him in for a thorough exam/consultation and follow his/her recommendations.

MyFairLacy · 07-26-2008, 10:43 AM

I'm really confused why some of you would recommend a Blood Panel over a Bile Acid Test

Both involve a blood draw...one is not any riskier than the other, and honestly, the risk of complications from a blood draw is very low. A blood draw is a common, routine procedure and the amount of blood they need for a blood panel or BAT is small.

Someone said if the breeder doesn't think he has a shunt don't test...please don't only trust your breeder. I know first hand that breeders will lie about having liver shunt problems in the past. If you and your vet think liver shunt is a posibility from the symptoms he is exhibiting, get that baby tested. The sooner he is tested, the sooner he can be treated if it is a shunt. Otherwise he will only get sicker.

07-25-2008, 06:28 PM	#1
lulababy bam and pebbles mommy Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 1,706	how young is too young to test for liver shunt?? I am having some issues with my 13 week old 18 ounce puppy. He is not eating enough or drinking enough and is losing weight, and apparently he is having some other liver shunt symptoms. Everyone is saying that I should go take him to test his bile acid asap, like tomorrow. I was wondering if he was too tiny to do this test? What is the smallest youve ever tested a pup for liver shunt and how did they take it? What is your suggestion? My guy has had one bad hypo attack in the week ive had him where i had to rush him to the vet, fyi. This is the thread if you want to catch up: puppy not eating or drinking enough Please let me know your opinions __________________ P E B B L E S Member of PPU, The PiNk Club, The Crazy Club, & SRC Add my puppy on Myspace & Dogster! BAM BAM Soon to be member of PPU, Little Gentlemans Club, Crazy Club & SRC

07-25-2008, 07:27 PM	#2
MyFairLacy Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 11,003	First step is taking him to the vet for a good checkup and talk to your vet about his symtoms. if you truly feel he is exhibiting liver shunt symptoms, then I would definitely do a bile acid test. Fasting is no longer required so it's much safer than it was in the past due to hypoglycemia. Before his next meal is due, a blood sample will be taken. He will then be fed and two hours later another blood sample will be taken. This test is no more risky than a routine blood draw for a blood panel. If your vet is experienced with tiny puppies and is familiar with the procedures for a BAT then your puppy should do fine for the test. And if you truly think there might be a posibility of liver shunt, the earlier he is diagnosed the sooner as you can start treatment. Otherwise at his size, he could quickly become too sick to be treated Here is the most current update from Dr. Sharon Centers on liver shunt and Bile Acid Testing http://www.yorkiefoundation.org/purina1.pdf Dr. Center's once said that 16 weeks was the ideal time to test but has now revised that to 18 weeks. However, if he is showing symptoms of liver shunt, a BAT should be done. __________________ ~Magnifique Yorkies~ Purchasing from backyard breeders, pet shops, and puppymills perpetuates the suffering of other dogs. Educate yourself and buy from reputable breeders or rescue.

07-26-2008, 03:44 AM	#7
NanaDtreasures YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: usa Posts: 1,321	I hope your baby gets better I want to tell you I'm saying a little prayer for your Little guy. I hope he does better soon. Be very careful about testing,please read what happened to Roses lil Teaser That being said... I want to tell you what happened to me this week I had a young girl 20 years old call me from Toledo Ohio, to see a girl puppy. She had just lost her puppy the day before. She had bought a 10 week old Yorkie from a "professional breeder" who showed her dogs near her Toledo home This little girl was just ONE POUND !!! They ask all the right questions . The breeder told her that the only problem this little girl had was "sometimes she SHOOK and needed vitamins" I was furious just her telling me that someone would sell a 1 lb 10 week old puppy!!! (I would NEVER sell a 1 pounder , even at 12 weeks !!!!! ) Within 12 hours her little puppy was dead. The vet said it was liver shunt. VERY VERY bad liver shunt. This breeder met her at the vets where she died. This was a "professional breeder" she had show dogs and bred tinies. This young girl wanted a teeny tinie so bad...then this happened She said ...I loved this little puppy so much even thou I just had her 12 hours. She got one of Nalas girls....bigger but healthy. People should test their adult dogs. NO ONE should breed or sell sick adults or puppies Its wrong and heartbreaking !!!! __________________ Debbi ~Follow the 3 R's~~~ Respect for self...Respect for others ...Responsibility for all your actions

07-26-2008, 04:37 AM	#8
Susan123 YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 1,455	If your breeder doesn't think he has liver shunt, I would not test him. He's so small it could do more harm than good. I suggest syringing him a few cc'c of science diet a/d mixed with a little water. If you do this every 2 hours, he'll likely be fine. Unless it is L/S or something else. Wait a while, don't test unless you absolutely have to. Which I don't think you have to do at this point. The symptoms could have been caused by the dehydration. Last edited by Susan123; 07-26-2008 at 04:38 AM.

07-26-2008, 07:45 AM	#12
Ladymom Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 8,317	Dr. Center has recently revised her protocol for bile acid testing from sixteen to eighteen weeks being the youngest age to have it done. She has found that the organs just aren't developed enough before 18 weeks and false negatives are possible. Bile acids tests are perfectly safe, just a simple blood draw. The danger is in NOT getting one done. This new article by Dr. Center (June 2008) is a must read for all Yorkie owners. http://www.yorkiefoundation.org/purina1.pdf __________________ http://www.myladysdogbows.com/ http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref...6213341?ref=nf

07-25-2008, 09:01 PM	#3
Cookie2 Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 1,568	I know that some people are saying that you should deffinately have the puppy tested now. I'm just giving my honest opinion here: Since this puppy is so tiny I would NOT test at this moment ,however I WOULD start ...just as a precaution ,Syringe feeding a LOW protien canned food such as Hills L/D, This puppy NEEDs to eat and many here have had to force feed/syringe feed a puppy until it begins to eat on it's own. I do agree that a Bile Acid test shouldbe done when buying a yorkie BUT... not on such a tiny.There are several reasons why the puppy is having these symptoms. Of course some of these symptoms could be because of Liver Shunt,ENCEPHALITIS ,ear infection and so on. Do you know if your breeder has done a Bile Acid test on the mom and dad of this puppy .If she's a responsible breeder I'm sure she has tested the dogs in her breeding program.If the breeder has,then I would ask for a copy... Genie Cookie,Lola,Angel & Lucky

07-25-2008, 10:00 PM	#6
BlondeYorkieMom Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona Posts: 213	I don't know anything about Liver Shunts, but I want to say that my heart goes out to you and Bam Bam. I hope he starts feeling better and it isn't anything serious

07-26-2008, 06:37 AM	#9
Cookie2 Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 1,568	Also something else you mentioned. Your puppy is NOT drinking water. One of the Liver shunt symptom is a dog drinking too much water This may be something else.I'm truly hoping it is. Not eating ,Not drinking is a symptom of many things A puppy that is with an empty stomach and dehydrated will obviously be weak,sleep more often and not be as playful. I hope you get answers real soon. Bringing a new puppy home should be a happy occasion and I'm just really sorry you are going through this instead. Genie Cookie,Lola,Angel& Lucky

07-26-2008, 07:19 AM	#11
bjh Donating YT 5000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 7,959	My recommendation is that you have a full blood panel done asap. If the blood panel indicates liver problems then go from there. I would not be giving him chicken because if he does have a compromised liver the chicken would be bad for him. I do not feel that it is good giving them Nutri-cal all the time because that can actually cause blood sugar problems. I highly recommend Pet-tinic which is a liquid vitamin that vets sell. Also, adding a little corn syrup to his water would help him. You have to get him eating well. What dry food are you feeding him? You could try grinding up the dry food in a blender and letting him eat that. Theses tiny babies seem to like it better that way. Another option is to boil some eggs and give him 1/2 hard boiled egg, smashed up with about a teaspoon of sweet potato and a teaspoon of cottage cheese. You can also buy the baby food chicken, sweet potatoes, green beans, peas, etc and mix a little of that together for him. The most important thing is to find out if his liver is compromised or if something else is going on. What vaccinations has your puppy had? Has he had any recently. Often vaccinations can cause serious side effects, especially with your baby being so little. If he has had vaccinations recently then you may get false results from the blood tests and the bat test. I highly recommend you find a vet that is somewhat familiar with liver shunt and take it from there. If your puppy does have a liver shunt he needs to be on a special diet right away to get him stabilized. Not many vets are qualified to do the liver shunt surgery and it is very costly and there are no guarantee your puppy would survive the surgery as young as he is. I just pray that your baby will okay. Please keep us updated.

07-26-2008, 09:45 AM	#13
011011 YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: minnesota Posts: 1,432	My recommendation is that you have a full blood panel done asap. If the blood panel indicates liver problems then go from there. I agree

07-26-2008, 10:36 AM	#14
chattiesmom Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Alabama Posts: 17,674	If you trust Bam Bam's vet I would take him in for a thorough exam/consultation and follow his/her recommendations. __________________ Silk Step-In Harnesses www.foxypups.etsy.com

07-26-2008, 10:43 AM	#15
MyFairLacy Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 11,003	I'm really confused why some of you would recommend a Blood Panel over a Bile Acid Test Both involve a blood draw...one is not any riskier than the other, and honestly, the risk of complications from a blood draw is very low. A blood draw is a common, routine procedure and the amount of blood they need for a blood panel or BAT is small. Someone said if the breeder doesn't think he has a shunt don't test...please don't only trust your breeder. I know first hand that breeders will lie about having liver shunt problems in the past. If you and your vet think liver shunt is a posibility from the symptoms he is exhibiting, get that baby tested. The sooner he is tested, the sooner he can be treated if it is a shunt. Otherwise he will only get sicker. __________________ ~Magnifique Yorkies~ Purchasing from backyard breeders, pet shops, and puppymills perpetuates the suffering of other dogs. Educate yourself and buy from reputable breeders or rescue.