Free Whelping

[Woogie Man]

I was browsing around the web last night, looking (as usual) at dog related sites. I came across one that mentioned that no bitch should be allowed to continue to breed that cannot free whelp. I never gave it much thought as all my girls are free whelpers but have noticed quite a few Yorkies on here needing c-sections. I haven't kept track but have noticed some have stated they've had their girls spayed, not sure about all though. I see many posts about what should be considered in a breeding dog (size, health testing, excellent representation of the breed, etc.) but have never seen whether or not the bitch can free whelp discussed. Of course, you can never know if she'll free whelp until the time comes but should you not consider a bitch for breeding if she came from a litter that had to be c-sectioned? If you breed a bitch and she needs a c-section, shouldn't she be spayed? Should none of the pups ever be bred? Would that include the males? Could the males pass on the inability to free whelp to his female offspring? Wouldn't it be wise to ask whether or not the mom free whelped before considering any puppy that might be used for breeding? These are just a few questions that come to mind thinking about it. It seems that if we're trying to better the breed, this ought to be a prime consideration. Any input or answers are much appreciated.

[khyorkies]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I was browsing around the web last night, looking (as usual) at dog related sites. I came across one that mentioned that no bitch should be allowed to continue to breed that cannot free whelp. I never gave it much thought as all my girls are free whelpers but have noticed quite a few Yorkies on here needing c-sections. I haven't kept track but have noticed some have stated they've had their girls spayed, not sure about all though. I see many posts about what should be considered in a breeding dog (size, health testing, excellent representation of the breed, etc.) but have never seen whether or not the bitch can free whelp discussed. Of course, you can never know if she'll free whelp until the time comes but should you not consider a bitch for breeding if she came from a litter that had to be c-sectioned? If you breed a bitch and she needs a c-section, shouldn't she be spayed? Should none of the pups ever be bred? Would that include the males? Could the males pass on the inability to free whelp to his female offspring? Wouldn't it be wise to ask whether or not the mom free whelped before considering any puppy that might be used for breeding? These are just a few questions that come to mind thinking about it. It seems that if we're trying to better the breed, this ought to be a prime consideration. Any input or answers are much appreciated.

That is a really good question. I have never thought about it either. Can't wait to see what everyone says about this!

[littlelady]

I don't see how that could be a congenital issue unless there are phsyical characteristics at play. Such as the width between the hips. I was told if you could measure the distance by putting your thumb across this area then the bitch should be able to whelp her pups. The size of both parent dogs. The size of the puppies heads by x-ray or ultrasound. I was always told to always breed to a smaller male.
To begin with what causes for the bitch to not whlep the litter normally. I read a thread the other day were 2 puppies had come down at the same time but from both vaginal horms competing for the exit at the same time. So a c-section was needed. So whould this bitch be spayed? This wasn't necessarily a physical impairment.
I think a responsible breeder would work hand in hand with their vet for the wellbeing of their dogs health and come to a conclusion to promote a good outcome.

[cesar49]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I was browsing around the web last night, looking (as usual) at dog related sites. I came across one that mentioned that no bitch should be allowed to continue to breed that cannot free whelp. I never gave it much thought as all my girls are free whelpers but have noticed quite a few Yorkies on here needing c-sections. I haven't kept track but have noticed some have stated they've had their girls spayed, not sure about all though. I see many posts about what should be considered in a breeding dog (size, health testing, excellent representation of the breed, etc.) but have never seen whether or not the bitch can free whelp discussed. Of course, you can never know if she'll free whelp until the time comes but should you not consider a bitch for breeding if she came from a litter that had to be c-sectioned? If you breed a bitch and she needs a c-section, shouldn't she be spayed? Should none of the pups ever be bred? Would that include the males? Could the males pass on the inability to free whelp to his female offspring? Wouldn't it be wise to ask whether or not the mom free whelped before considering any puppy that might be used for breeding? These are just a few questions that come to mind thinking about it. It seems that if we're trying to better the breed, this ought to be a prime consideration. Any input or answers are much appreciated.

I totally agree
this makes sense

along with the standards

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by littlelady

I don't see how that could be a congenital issue unless there are phsyical characteristics at play. Such as the width between the hips. I was told if you could measure the distance by putting your thumb across this area then the bitch should be able to whelp her pups. The size of both parent dogs. The size of the puppies heads by x-ray or ultrasound. I was always told to always breed to a smaller male.
To begin with what causes for the bitch to not whlep the litter normally. I read a thread the other day were 2 puppies had come down at the same time but from both vaginal horms competing for the exit at the same time. So a c-section was needed. So whould this bitch be spayed? This wasn't necessarily a physical impairment.
I think a responsible breeder would work hand in hand with their vet for the wellbeing of their dogs health and come to a conclusion to promote a good outcome.

All your points are well taken. However, not including the number of c-sections here lately, many breeders caution that c-sections are common in Yorkies. I don't think you could put them all off to being breeders mis-matching dogs or breeding obviously unsuitable females. I know there probably isn't hard data on the subject, but it seems like there must be more to it than just measuring the bitch and finding a smaller male (and considering their backgrounds) for it to be considered fairly common for a bitch to need a c-section. I'm not trying to make a case for mass spaying, just trying to explore a subject I've never seen touched on here before. You are right, of course, that working with your vet, getting an x-ray or ultrasound done can give you a heads up on a potential problem delivery. I guess my whole point is in trying to prevent these problems in the first place. It may well be just a matter of physical characteristics but the number of c-sections seems to indicate there may be other possible causes.

[cesar49]

i think the mom may need to be spayed.. but the girls and the boy puppies
may be great for breeding..
i think it is an individual thing.. the bitch may be too small in combination with a stud who is too big.
any bitch with a csection should def be spayed..
but not all the puppies necessarily..
i doubt it is genetic.
but i am just guessing.. am no expert

using the smallest stud .. very healthy...
would be my choice

[cesar49]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

All your points are well taken. However, not including the number of c-sections here lately, many breeders caution that c-sections are common in Yorkies. I don't think you could put them all off to being breeders mis-matching dogs or breeding obviously unsuitable females. I know there probably isn't hard data on the subject, but it seems like there must be more to it than just measuring the bitch and finding a smaller male (and considering their backgrounds) for it to be considered fairly common for a bitch to need a c-section. I'm not trying to make a case for mass spaying, just trying to explore a subject I've never seen touched on here before. You are right, of course, that working with your vet, getting an x-ray or ultrasound done can give you a heads up on a potential problem delivery. I guess my whole point is in trying to prevent these problems in the first place. It may well be just a matter of physical characteristics but the number of c-sections seems to indicate there may be other possible causes.

there should never be repeat breeding of a girl with a c section..there is no excuse for this..
they should be spayed during the c section..

[jennylee333]

Explain the thumb thing. What are the mesuring points and so on???????

[YorkieRose]

There is no black and white answer to this question. What was the reason for needing a section? One over sized pup, puppy blocking birth canal, weak contractions..on and on.

It does not sit right with me to make a blanket statement as this or any... and if you do not comply, you are unethical, uncaring etc.

I give a bitch two chances...many free whelp the second time and there after..a few do not and are spayed.
I had a girl with very poor contractions.. gave oxyie and then a section...vet said to try again...I thought if she had poor contractions the first time, she would have poor contractions the next..stands to reason, right? My vet was there for me 24/7, so I bred the girl again...she free whelped with strong contractions..and went on to have a couple more litters. I have had girls with one large pup and sectioned, but the next litter was 4 and no problems...see my point?

I have had bitches free whelp two litters, need a section and go on to free whelp the next...
No one has the right to tell the knowledgable, well seasoned breeder how to breed..the novice needs a good mentor to help them make wise choices. I do respect those who are very concerned with the welfare of these bitches, but no one has to tell the ethcial breeder how to do it..

[kpstoybox]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

There is no black and white answer to this question. What was the reason for needing a section? One over sized pup, puppy blocking birth canal, weak contractions..on and on.

It does not sit right with me to make a blanket statement as this or any... and if you do not comply, you are unethical, uncaring etc.

I give a bitch two chances...many free whelp the second time and there after..a few do not and are spayed.
I had a girl with very poor contractions.. gave oxyie and then a section...vet said to try again...I thought if she had poor contractions the first time, she would have poor contractions the next..stands to reason, right? My vet was there for me 24/7, so I bred the girl again...she free whelped with strong contractions..and went on to have a couple more litters. I have had girls with one large pup and sectioned, but the next litter was 4 and no problems...see my point?

I have had bitches free whelp two litters, need a section and go on to free whelp the next...
No one has the right to tell the knowledgable, well seasoned breeder how to breed..the novice needs a good mentor to help them make wise choices. I do respect those who are very concerned with the welfare of these bitches, but no one has to tell the ethcial breeder how to do it..

[Little Bit]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

There is no black and white answer to this question. What was the reason for needing a section? One over sized pup, puppy blocking birth canal, weak contractions..on and on.

It does not sit right with me to make a blanket statement as this or any... and if you do not comply, you are unethical, uncaring etc.

I give a bitch two chances...many free whelp the second time and there after..a few do not and are spayed.
I had a girl with very poor contractions.. gave oxyie and then a section...vet said to try again...I thought if she had poor contractions the first time, she would have poor contractions the next..stands to reason, right? My vet was there for me 24/7, so I bred the girl again...she free whelped with strong contractions..and went on to have a couple more litters. I have had girls with one large pup and sectioned, but the next litter was 4 and no problems...see my point?

I have had bitches free whelp two litters, need a section and go on to free whelp the next...
No one has the right to tell the knowledgable, well seasoned breeder how to breed..the novice needs a good mentor to help them make wise choices. I do respect those who are very concerned with the welfare of these bitches, but no one has to tell the ethcial breeder how to do it..

Very well said.

There are many factors that come into play. All must be considered.

Also it is not always a good idea, though many do it, to have your female spayed at the time of a C-section. Our babies are so little and when they are pregnant the uterus is engorged with blood. It is very risky to remove it in this state as it causes a serious drop in blood volume. There are so many things to be considered. It is best to work with your vet and all the knowledge that you can get before you make decisions one way or another.

[yoyo27]

I think its the decision of a responsible breeder. Again I'm going to say a responsible breeder to make that decision. That is why its always go to do your research and get from someone that knows what is going on. Or to have a mentor that is a well seasoned breeder. And a Vet that you can depend on with this small breed.

[teffiemoore]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

There is no black and white answer to this question. What was the reason for needing a section? One over sized pup, puppy blocking birth canal, weak contractions..on and on.

It does not sit right with me to make a blanket statement as this or any... and if you do not comply, you are unethical, uncaring etc.

I give a bitch two chances...many free whelp the second time and there after..a few do not and are spayed.
I had a girl with very poor contractions.. gave oxyie and then a section...vet said to try again...I thought if she had poor contractions the first time, she would have poor contractions the next..stands to reason, right? My vet was there for me 24/7, so I bred the girl again...she free whelped with strong contractions..and went on to have a couple more litters. I have had girls with one large pup and sectioned, but the next litter was 4 and no problems...see my point?

I have had bitches free whelp two litters, need a section and go on to free whelp the next...
No one has the right to tell the knowledgable, well seasoned breeder how to breed..the novice needs a good mentor to help them make wise choices. I do respect those who are very concerned with the welfare of these bitches, but no one has to tell the ethcial breeder how to do it..

Exactly. One has to evaluate WHY the bitch was sectioned to begin with. There are many reasons. To say that a bitch should be spayed automatically because she was sectioned would be saying that...she will have the exact problem repeated with every preg. or ?its not safe to carry another litter due to a previous c-section?? Either statement is false. Every situation stands on its own.

[gardenyorkies]

Originally Posted by cesar49

there should never be repeat breeding of a girl with a c section..there is no excuse for this..
they should be spayed during the c section..

So does this mean that a woman having a baby that requires a c-section should never have anymore children?..All pregnancies are different and the reason the need for a section is different...There are many reasons a bitch may need a section...

Also it is not advised to do a spay at the same time as a section unless it is needed because the uterus is damaged...The uterus is so blood filled at the time of whelping that it is better to wait until a later date to do a spay...

[khyorkies]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

There is no black and white answer to this question. What was the reason for needing a section? One over sized pup, puppy blocking birth canal, weak contractions..on and on.

It does not sit right with me to make a blanket statement as this or any... and if you do not comply, you are unethical, uncaring etc.

I give a bitch two chances...many free whelp the second time and there after..a few do not and are spayed.
I had a girl with very poor contractions.. gave oxyie and then a section...vet said to try again...I thought if she had poor contractions the first time, she would have poor contractions the next..stands to reason, right? My vet was there for me 24/7, so I bred the girl again...she free whelped with strong contractions..and went on to have a couple more litters. I have had girls with one large pup and sectioned, but the next litter was 4 and no problems...see my point?

I have had bitches free whelp two litters, need a section and go on to free whelp the next...
No one has the right to tell the knowledgable, well seasoned breeder how to breed..the novice needs a good mentor to help them make wise choices. I do respect those who are very concerned with the welfare of these bitches, but no one has to tell the ethcial breeder how to do it..

That was a great post and that pretty much summed it up for me!!