This is interesting re: Liver Shunt

[blitz]

This was copied with the permission of Dr. Tobias.

I have heard over and over of a famous dog that people are claiming is behind so much of the Liver shunts.

We evaluated the pedigrees for common ancestors and, in the PSS group, found one dog that was mentioned repeatedly in most the five and 8 generation pedigrees. However, this dog was also mentioned in most of the pedigrees of the normal Yorkies as well, and therefore cannot be implicated in the disease.


Bottom line: The news is good and bad. For those folks that are concerned about a certain dog or dogs in their lines, there is no proof that a single dog or line is the source of the disease. I'm sure that is a relief for many breeders. However, it would have been much easier to find out that a certain dog or line was responsible, as that would make the problem easier to avoid. Based on our results, the trait is likely to be polygeneic; thus, there is no easy answer as to how to avoid the disease. Veterinarians will likely continue to recommend that neither parent of a shunt dog be bred again or, at the very least, that test breedings of parent to offspring be performed to rule out carriers. Research is now underway at Ohio State University and Michigan to look for a genetic marker. If you know of anyone that has 2 affected dogs in the same line, please contact us or any of the involved Universities. Your information may provide the key to developing a test that will save future generations from this disease.

[dudley1984]

[quote=blitz;1849399]This was copied with the permission of Dr. Tobias.

I have heard over and over of a famous dog that people are claiming is behind so much of the Liver shunts.

Yes, the are many fine, healthy dogs descended from this one, but an unusual number of LS ones too. Nobody has been able to scientifically prove the link. Talk to an experienced breeder and they will say "it's hard to avoid a pedigree without youknowwho behind it, just be careful who you breed it with." I would venture to guess that two youknowwho descendents shouldn't be bred to each other. I'm not against testing after the fact, but geez, how do you dispose of the shunt puppies? I'd rather be extra careful and not get any in the first place...

[blitz]

[quote=dudley1984;1849503]

Originally Posted by blitz

This was copied with the permission of Dr. Tobias.

I have heard over and over of a famous dog that people are claiming is behind so much of the Liver shunts.

Yes, the are many fine, healthy dogs descended from this one, but an unusual number of LS ones too. Nobody has been able to scientifically prove the link. Talk to an experienced breeder and they will say "it's hard to avoid a pedigree without youknowwho behind it, just be careful who you breed it with." I would venture to guess that two youknowwho descendents shouldn't be bred to each other. I'm not against testing after the fact, but geez, how do you dispose of the shunt puppies? I'd rather be extra careful and not get any in the first place...

Statistically, it wasn't an unusual amount. Dispose of the shunt puppies? Oh God. You could get the shunt surgically corrected, hopefully, and then you could care for them or give them away.

[my2boyz]

[quote=dudley1984;1849503]

Originally Posted by blitz

This was copied with the permission of Dr. Tobias.

I have heard over and over of a famous dog that people are claiming is behind so much of the Liver shunts.

Yes, the are many fine, healthy dogs descended from this one, but an unusual number of LS ones too. Nobody has been able to scientifically prove the link. Talk to an experienced breeder and they will say "it's hard to avoid a pedigree without youknowwho behind it, just be careful who you breed it with." I would venture to guess that two youknowwho descendents shouldn't be bred to each other. I'm not against testing after the fact, but geez, how do you dispose of the shunt puppies? I'd rather be extra careful and not get any in the first place...

Wow...I hope you didn't really mean to ask how you would 'dispose of' the shunt puppies. You really meant how would you find loving homes that were willing and capable of giving them the medical attention they need in order to live a long and happy life...right?

[dudley1984]

[quote=my2boyz;1849525]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

Wow...I hope you didn't really mean to ask how you would 'dispose of' the shunt puppies. You really meant how would you find loving homes that were willing and capable of giving them the medical attention they need in order to live a long and happy life...right?

It was actually a serious question. I know there must be a small minority of breeders who would do the decent thing and pay for the surgery for a shunt puppy they produced, but I suspect many more would dispose of the problem in some cheaper, more convenient say. Sick puppies are hard to place, even free...By the way, statistically, what is the occurrence of shunt? Please don't say 36 times the number for all dogs unless you can also tell me what that number is.

[blitz]

[quote=dudley1984;1849546]

Originally Posted by my2boyz

It was actually a serious question. I know there must be a small minority of breeders who would do the decent thing and pay for the surgery for a shunt puppy they produced, but I suspect many more would dispose of the problem in some cheaper, more convenient say. Sick puppies are hard to place, even free...

The sad thing is... he speaks the truth.

[bjh]

[quote=dudley1984;1849546]

Originally Posted by my2boyz

It was actually a serious question. I know there must be a small minority of breeders who would do the decent thing and pay for the surgery for a shunt puppy they produced, but I suspect many more would dispose of the problem in some cheaper, more convenient say. Sick puppies are hard to place, even free...By the way, statistically, what is the occurrence of shunt? Please don't say 36 times the number for all dogs unless you can also tell me what that number is.

I don't think we will ever know what breeders do with liver shunt puppies because it seems that most breeders are afraid to admit they have produced a liver shunt puppy. I know there are many Yorkie owners on this forum that have liver shunt puppies and I think some of them do quite well on a proper diet. I do really wonder how many liver shunt puppies are out there. Many of them probably die before they are diagnosed with liver shunt. I hear of a lot of puppies dying from hypoglycemia, more so than with liver shunt, and I wonder how many of those had liver shunts. So many breeders today just send tiny Yorkie pups to their new homes with a tube of Nutri-cal and just tell the new owners to be careful.

[blitz]

Two shunt dogs had their shunts surgically repaired and were bred to each other and produced three normal puppies.

[dudley1984]

Originally Posted by blitz

Two shunt dogs had their shunts surgically repaired and were bred to each other and produced three normal puppies.

Wow this is getting downright weird. Someone bred two shunt dogs? So now you have three difinite carriers. How stupid can you get. No wonder the problem is so pervasive.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

Wow this is getting downright weird. Someone bred two shunt dogs? So now you have three difinite carriers. How stupid can you get. No wonder the problem is so pervasive.

Dr. Tobias did that as part of her study....so I hope that's what it's in reference to.

[dudley1984]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

Dr. Tobias did that as part of her study....so I hope that's what it's in reference to.

Of course Dr. Tobias would have to do something like that as part of her study. I thought you were referring to some irresponsible back yard breeder, some of whom I'm sure have also tried that. Are you surprised they could have normal puppies? Being carriers or having shunt doesn't mean every puppy they produce will also be affected, but the odds certainly are not in their favor...It's all about odds.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

Of course Dr. Tobias would have to do something like that as part of her study. I thought you were referring to some irresponsible back yard breeder, some of whom I'm sure have also tried that. Are you surprised they could have normal puppies? Being carriers or having shunt doesn't mean every puppy they produce will also be affected, but the odds certainly are not in their favor...It's all about odds.

I didn't post the original comment, but no I have read enough about LS not to be surprised the breeding produced "normal" puppies. It hasn't been determined HOW the gene is passed...that's what is being researched now. It isn't simply one genetic marking...which would've made things a whole lot simpler.

[Woogie Man]

I don't know why, I just have a gut feeling, that these health issues have a lot to do with lack of genetic diversity. Remember the royal families of Europe and their propensity towards hemophilia. Could it be that many of these issues stem from 'responsible' breeders that strive for 'quality' but are afraid to stray too far from the successful bloodlines that have made a name for themselves? By setting such a tight standard for Yorkies have we really contributed to the 'betterment' of the breed? Huddersfield Ben wouldn't stand a chance in the show ring by todays standard. Is this high incidence of liver shunt more pronounced in the 'better bred dogs' than the Yorkie population at large? Why do we nowadays shun the "throwbacks' which are true 'Yorkshire Terriers' simply due to the standards dictated by a club? For myself, I have no conclusions; this is offered as just food for thought. My personal belief is the Yorkie should have been broken down like the Poodle with different distinctions given for size. This would avoid the 'wild card' results that are common to many breedings and would narrow down the health risks associated with the various classifications. Since the inception of the breed, there have been both small and large Yorkies. Why we have chosen to ignore this in creating the modern standard is beyond me. Betterment of the breed? Get real.

[yorkielovs2chat]

I agree with Woogie man. I have to wonder if line breeding could make it worse?

I got my dog from a well known show breeder. Some of his close relatives are doing very well in the show ring. Well...no signs...but it was confirmed that he has multiple shunts. Last I knew, father is still breeding and I think siblings.

Just because you get the dogs from a "good" breeder or "show" breeder and just because they show no symptoms, doesn't mean you can't get LS. It pops up everywhere.

The important thing is to find a breeder who is honest about health problems. I chose my breeder based on the understanding (and maybe I was too naive) that there were no health problems. Find out later, there are stone problems with some of the dogs. Also, find a breeder who is not afraid to say to you "yes, I had a liver shunt dog pop up. This is what I did to stop it from happening again". I find that many breeders will just threaten the buyer to be quiet and do not admit to having an LS dog.

[yorkielovs2chat]

[quote=bjh;1849738]

Originally Posted by dudley1984

I don't think we will ever know what breeders do with liver shunt puppies because it seems that most breeders are afraid to admit they have produced a liver shunt puppy. I know there are many Yorkie owners on this forum that have liver shunt puppies and I think some of them do quite well on a proper diet. I do really wonder how many liver shunt puppies are out there. Many of them probably die before they are diagnosed with liver shunt. I hear of a lot of puppies dying from hypoglycemia, more so than with liver shunt, and I wonder how many of those had liver shunts. So many breeders today just send tiny Yorkie pups to their new homes with a tube of Nutri-cal and just tell the new owners to be careful.

You make an excellant point here and one that the LS expert at Cornell told me. Could there be more dogs who have this who live long lives and have such small symptoms that we dont' know it????? we have so much better testing now. The thing is...many dogs are NOT showing signs. Some aren't finding out until they are 9 years old...13 years old!!!!!! Being one of the unfortunate ones, I have come acrossed a lot of this. And YES it is NOT a death sentence. My dog has multiple external ones but he is doing fine with his liver. He is a strong athletic dog. You would never know he has it but he does have a small othe rproblem we are dealwith with.
I would NEVER return my dog. I got him from a well known show breeder and saved my hard earned money because I wanted a HEALTHY dog and from her answering my questions, thought she had a healthy line but how do any of us know what is going on at a breeders? I have some questions now (after the fact--finding out some things that I didn't know before I put money down) but even breeders who DO strive to breed healthy could produce LS so it is such a hard call.

Bottom line...bile acid test ALL your yorkies so you can catch the problem right away and put them on medical/supplement management or even correct the problem with surgery.