YorkieTalk.com Forums - Yorkshire Terrier Community


Welcome to the YorkieTalk.com Forums Community - the community for Yorkshire Terriers.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. You will be able to chat with over 35,000 YorkieTalk members, read over 2,000,000 posted discussions, and view more than 15,000 Yorkie photos in the YorkieTalk Photo Gallery after you register. We would love to have you as a member!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please click here to contact us.

Go Back   YorkieTalk.com Forums - Yorkshire Terrier Community > Breeding / Showing / Traveling > Breeder Talk
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar JavaChat Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-14-2008, 01:55 PM   #1
No Longer a Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: California
Posts: 127
Default This is interesting re: Liver Shunt

This was copied with the permission of Dr. Tobias.

I have heard over and over of a famous dog that people are claiming is behind so much of the Liver shunts.

We evaluated the pedigrees for common ancestors and, in the PSS group, found one dog that was mentioned repeatedly in most the five and 8 generation pedigrees. However, this dog was also mentioned in most of the pedigrees of the normal Yorkies as well, and therefore cannot be implicated in the disease.


Bottom line: The news is good and bad. For those folks that are concerned about a certain dog or dogs in their lines, there is no proof that a single dog or line is the source of the disease. I'm sure that is a relief for many breeders. However, it would have been much easier to find out that a certain dog or line was responsible, as that would make the problem easier to avoid. Based on our results, the trait is likely to be polygeneic; thus, there is no easy answer as to how to avoid the disease. Veterinarians will likely continue to recommend that neither parent of a shunt dog be bred again or, at the very least, that test breedings of parent to offspring be performed to rule out carriers. Research is now underway at Ohio State University and Michigan to look for a genetic marker. If you know of anyone that has 2 affected dogs in the same line, please contact us or any of the involved Universities. Your information may provide the key to developing a test that will save future generations from this disease.
blitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Welcome Guest!
Not Registered?

Join today and remove this ad!

Old 03-14-2008, 02:58 PM   #2
BANNED!
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: salem nh
Posts: 81
Default Do it thoughtfully...

[QUOTE=blitz;1849399]This was copied with the permission of Dr. Tobias.

I have heard over and over of a famous dog that people are claiming is behind so much of the Liver shunts.

Yes, the are many fine, healthy dogs descended from this one, but an unusual number of LS ones too. Nobody has been able to scientifically prove the link. Talk to an experienced breeder and they will say "it's hard to avoid a pedigree without youknowwho behind it, just be careful who you breed it with." I would venture to guess that two youknowwho descendents shouldn't be bred to each other. I'm not against testing after the fact, but geez, how do you dispose of the shunt puppies? I'd rather be extra careful and not get any in the first place...
dudley1984 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2008, 03:04 PM   #3
No Longer a Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: California
Posts: 127
Default

[quote=dudley1984;1849503]
Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz View Post
This was copied with the permission of Dr. Tobias.

I have heard over and over of a famous dog that people are claiming is behind so much of the Liver shunts.

Yes, the are many fine, healthy dogs descended from this one, but an unusual number of LS ones too. Nobody has been able to scientifically prove the link. Talk to an experienced breeder and they will say "it's hard to avoid a pedigree without youknowwho behind it, just be careful who you breed it with." I would venture to guess that two youknowwho descendents shouldn't be bred to each other. I'm not against testing after the fact, but geez, how do you dispose of the shunt puppies? I'd rather be extra careful and not get any in the first place...
Statistically, it wasn't an unusual amount. Dispose of the shunt puppies? Oh God. You could get the shunt surgically corrected, hopefully, and then you could care for them or give them away.
blitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2008, 03:09 PM   #4
Donating YT 1000 Club Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In my house :)
Posts: 5,219
Default

[quote=dudley1984;1849503]
Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz View Post
This was copied with the permission of Dr. Tobias.

I have heard over and over of a famous dog that people are claiming is behind so much of the Liver shunts.

Yes, the are many fine, healthy dogs descended from this one, but an unusual number of LS ones too. Nobody has been able to scientifically prove the link. Talk to an experienced breeder and they will say "it's hard to avoid a pedigree without youknowwho behind it, just be careful who you breed it with." I would venture to guess that two youknowwho descendents shouldn't be bred to each other. I'm not against testing after the fact, but geez, how do you dispose of the shunt puppies? I'd rather be extra careful and not get any in the first place...
Wow...I hope you didn't really mean to ask how you would 'dispose of' the shunt puppies. You really meant how would you find loving homes that were willing and capable of giving them the medical attention they need in order to live a long and happy life...right?
my2boyz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2008, 03:23 PM   #5
BANNED!
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: salem nh
Posts: 81
Default

[quote=my2boyz;1849525]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dudley1984 View Post

Wow...I hope you didn't really mean to ask how you would 'dispose of' the shunt puppies. You really meant how would you find loving homes that were willing and capable of giving them the medical attention they need in order to live a long and happy life...right?
It was actually a serious question. I know there must be a small minority of breeders who would do the decent thing and pay for the surgery for a shunt puppy they produced, but I suspect many more would dispose of the problem in some cheaper, more convenient say. Sick puppies are hard to place, even free...By the way, statistically, what is the occurrence of shunt? Please don't say 36 times the number for all dogs unless you can also tell me what that number is.
dudley1984 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2008, 03:54 PM   #6
No Longer a Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: California
Posts: 127
Default

[quote=dudley1984;1849546]
Quote:
Originally Posted by my2boyz View Post

It was actually a serious question. I know there must be a small minority of breeders who would do the decent thing and pay for the surgery for a shunt puppy they produced, but I suspect many more would dispose of the problem in some cheaper, more convenient say. Sick puppies are hard to place, even free...
The sad thing is... he speaks the truth.
blitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2008, 04:56 PM   #7
bjh
Donating YT 5000 Club Member
 
bjh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 7,959
Default

[quote=dudley1984;1849546]
Quote:
Originally Posted by my2boyz View Post

It was actually a serious question. I know there must be a small minority of breeders who would do the decent thing and pay for the surgery for a shunt puppy they produced, but I suspect many more would dispose of the problem in some cheaper, more convenient say. Sick puppies are hard to place, even free...By the way, statistically, what is the occurrence of shunt? Please don't say 36 times the number for all dogs unless you can also tell me what that number is.
I don't think we will ever know what breeders do with liver shunt puppies because it seems that most breeders are afraid to admit they have produced a liver shunt puppy. I know there are many Yorkie owners on this forum that have liver shunt puppies and I think some of them do quite well on a proper diet. I do really wonder how many liver shunt puppies are out there. Many of them probably die before they are diagnosed with liver shunt. I hear of a lot of puppies dying from hypoglycemia, more so than with liver shunt, and I wonder how many of those had liver shunts. So many breeders today just send tiny Yorkie pups to their new homes with a tube of Nutri-cal and just tell the new owners to be careful.
bjh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2008, 08:28 AM   #8
No Longer a Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: California
Posts: 127
Default what do you think of this?

Two shunt dogs had their shunts surgically repaired and were bred to each other and produced three normal puppies.
blitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2008, 09:46 AM   #9
BANNED!
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: salem nh
Posts: 81
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz View Post
Two shunt dogs had their shunts surgically repaired and were bred to each other and produced three normal puppies.
Wow this is getting downright weird. Someone bred two shunt dogs? So now you have three difinite carriers. How stupid can you get. No wonder the problem is so pervasive.
dudley1984 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2008, 09:52 AM   #10
Donating YT 10K Club Member
 
bchgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: at da beach
Posts: 15,444
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dudley1984 View Post
Wow this is getting downright weird. Someone bred two shunt dogs? So now you have three difinite carriers. How stupid can you get. No wonder the problem is so pervasive.

Dr. Tobias did that as part of her study....so I hope that's what it's in reference to.
__________________
Deb, Reese, Reggie, Frazier, Libby, Sidney, & Bodie
Trace & Ramsey who watch over us
www.biewersbythebay.com
bchgirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2008, 09:59 AM   #11
BANNED!
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: salem nh
Posts: 81
Default Sorry...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bchgirl View Post
Dr. Tobias did that as part of her study....so I hope that's what it's in reference to.
Of course Dr. Tobias would have to do something like that as part of her study. I thought you were referring to some irresponsible back yard breeder, some of whom I'm sure have also tried that. Are you surprised they could have normal puppies? Being carriers or having shunt doesn't mean every puppy they produce will also be affected, but the odds certainly are not in their favor...It's all about odds.
dudley1984 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2008, 10:07 AM   #12
Donating YT 10K Club Member
 
bchgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: at da beach
Posts: 15,444
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dudley1984 View Post
Of course Dr. Tobias would have to do something like that as part of her study. I thought you were referring to some irresponsible back yard breeder, some of whom I'm sure have also tried that. Are you surprised they could have normal puppies? Being carriers or having shunt doesn't mean every puppy they produce will also be affected, but the odds certainly are not in their favor...It's all about odds.
I didn't post the original comment, but no I have read enough about LS not to be surprised the breeding produced "normal" puppies. It hasn't been determined HOW the gene is passed...that's what is being researched now. It isn't simply one genetic marking...which would've made things a whole lot simpler.
__________________
Deb, Reese, Reggie, Frazier, Libby, Sidney, & Bodie
Trace & Ramsey who watch over us
www.biewersbythebay.com
bchgirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 12:54 AM   #13
Donating Member
 
Woogie Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 2,564
Default

I don't know why, I just have a gut feeling, that these health issues have a lot to do with lack of genetic diversity. Remember the royal families of Europe and their propensity towards hemophilia. Could it be that many of these issues stem from 'responsible' breeders that strive for 'quality' but are afraid to stray too far from the successful bloodlines that have made a name for themselves? By setting such a tight standard for Yorkies have we really contributed to the 'betterment' of the breed? Huddersfield Ben wouldn't stand a chance in the show ring by todays standard. Is this high incidence of liver shunt more pronounced in the 'better bred dogs' than the Yorkie population at large? Why do we nowadays shun the "throwbacks' which are true 'Yorkshire Terriers' simply due to the standards dictated by a club? For myself, I have no conclusions; this is offered as just food for thought. My personal belief is the Yorkie should have been broken down like the Poodle with different distinctions given for size. This would avoid the 'wild card' results that are common to many breedings and would narrow down the health risks associated with the various classifications. Since the inception of the breed, there have been both small and large Yorkies. Why we have chosen to ignore this in creating the modern standard is beyond me. Betterment of the breed? Get real.
Woogie Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 05:19 AM   #14
Yorkie Yakker
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: ME
Posts: 61
Default hard to find LS especially when people aren't honest

I agree with Woogie man. I have to wonder if line breeding could make it worse?

I got my dog from a well known show breeder. Some of his close relatives are doing very well in the show ring. Well...no signs...but it was confirmed that he has multiple shunts. Last I knew, father is still breeding and I think siblings.

Just because you get the dogs from a "good" breeder or "show" breeder and just because they show no symptoms, doesn't mean you can't get LS. It pops up everywhere.

The important thing is to find a breeder who is honest about health problems. I chose my breeder based on the understanding (and maybe I was too naive) that there were no health problems. Find out later, there are stone problems with some of the dogs. Also, find a breeder who is not afraid to say to you "yes, I had a liver shunt dog pop up. This is what I did to stop it from happening again". I find that many breeders will just threaten the buyer to be quiet and do not admit to having an LS dog.
yorkielovs2chat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 05:26 AM   #15
Yorkie Yakker
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: ME
Posts: 61
Default

[quote=bjh;1849738]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dudley1984 View Post

I don't think we will ever know what breeders do with liver shunt puppies because it seems that most breeders are afraid to admit they have produced a liver shunt puppy. I know there are many Yorkie owners on this forum that have liver shunt puppies and I think some of them do quite well on a proper diet. I do really wonder how many liver shunt puppies are out there. Many of them probably die before they are diagnosed with liver shunt. I hear of a lot of puppies dying from hypoglycemia, more so than with liver shunt, and I wonder how many of those had liver shunts. So many breeders today just send tiny Yorkie pups to their new homes with a tube of Nutri-cal and just tell the new owners to be careful.
You make an excellant point here and one that the LS expert at Cornell told me. Could there be more dogs who have this who live long lives and have such small symptoms that we dont' know it????? we have so much better testing now. The thing is...many dogs are NOT showing signs. Some aren't finding out until they are 9 years old...13 years old!!!!!! Being one of the unfortunate ones, I have come acrossed a lot of this. And YES it is NOT a death sentence. My dog has multiple external ones but he is doing fine with his liver. He is a strong athletic dog. You would never know he has it but he does have a small othe rproblem we are dealwith with.
I would NEVER return my dog. I got him from a well known show breeder and saved my hard earned money because I wanted a HEALTHY dog and from her answering my questions, thought she had a healthy line but how do any of us know what is going on at a breeders? I have some questions now (after the fact--finding out some things that I didn't know before I put money down) but even breeders who DO strive to breed healthy could produce LS so it is such a hard call.

Bottom line...bile acid test ALL your yorkies so you can catch the problem right away and put them on medical/supplement management or even correct the problem with surgery.

Last edited by yorkielovs2chat; 03-16-2008 at 05:27 AM. Reason: wrong sentence
yorkielovs2chat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




Google
 

SHOP NOW: Amazon :: eBay :: Buy.com :: Newegg :: PetStore :: Petco :: PetSmart


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2003 - 2018 YorkieTalk.com
Privacy Policy - Terms of Use

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 864 865 866 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 886 887 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 915 916 917 918 919 920 921 922 923 924 925 926 927 928 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 937 938 939 940 941 942 943 944 945 946 947 948 949 950 951 952 953 954 955 956 957 958 959 960 961 962 963 964 965 966 967 968 969 970 971 972 973 974 975 976 977 978 979 980 981 982 983 984 985 986 987 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 1030 1031 1032 1033 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1039 1040 1041 1042 1043 1044 1045 1046 1047 1048 1049 1050 1051 1052 1053 1054 1055 1056 1057 1058 1059 1060 1061 1062 1063 1064 1065 1066 1067 1068 1069 1070 1071 1072 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1099 1100 1101 1102 1103 1104 1105 1106 1107 1108 1109 1110 1111 1112 1113 1114 1115 1116 1117 1118 1119 1120 1121 1122 1123 1124 1125 1126 1127 1128 1129 1130 1131 1132 1133 1134 1135 1136 1137 1138 1139 1140 1141 1142 1143 1144 1145 1146 1147 1148 1149 1150 1151 1152 1153 1154 1155 1156 1157 1158 1159 1160 1161 1162 1163 1164 1165 1166 1167