Liver Shunt Info Please

[ace611]

Hello! I would like to gather all the info on LS i can. I lost a puppy from my first litter and my vet thinks it might have been due to this. I know many of you have experienced this first hand and are full of knowledge. If it runs in the lines of my two i dont not want to continue breeding them. Both mom and dad do not have it. and all the other pups are completely fine.

[bchgirl]

How did your vet come to this diagnosis? There are specific tests that determine this disease. If it wasn't determined before puppy's death I'd think the only way you'd truly know was if an autopsy were performed. Lacking either of the above it sounds like it would be safer to retire the two you are breeding. LS can go back 10 generations....

This is from the leading authority on liver shunt -

http://www.vet.utk.edu/clinical/sacs/calendar/

[Ellie May]

How did your vet come to that conclusion?
I'd hate to see someone retire their dogs just because of a guess.

There is so much info about it.
What are you looking for in particular?
Have you been to Dr. Tobias' site?

[Shelby&Seymour]

Liver Shunt is inherited. I wouldn't breed them if it was Liver Shunt.

[jeanietoo]

I wouldn't retire on a hunch. If a necropsy was done or other testing yes, I would but why dis your vet think it was ls

[dudley1984]

Originally Posted by jeanietoo

I wouldn't retire on a hunch. If a necropsy was done or other testing yes, I would but why dis your vet think it was ls

A lot depends on where you got your dogs and how good their pedigrees are. Yours is a good case for doing the BAT testing to make sure neither of your adult dogs has shunt. Get someone more expert to look at your pedigrees, as far back as you can. There could be names there that can help determine how to proceed. Certain combinations of pedigrees don't work well either and you could have great success breeding your adults to other dogs. Shunt can happen randomly too, so don't panic. There's lots of discussion going on here right now about this subject. Good luck.

[glory]

that is great advice and if the lines are not related or have known carriers in them then you might be able to save your breeding program......as president of the TSFMLS fund and very knowledgeable about livershunt.......I lived that nightmare.......we have a pedigree advisor and very privately done between her and you and she might be able to guide you with some advice if you are interested........All breeders should be bile acid testing their puppies before you sell them.........why let this nightmare become a puppy owners pain......gosh some breeders are even saying to owners that they caused this livershunt.......now if that isn't the biggest crock of bull I ever heard.......livershunt is not cause .....it is inherited....... and we need to find the DNA marker to end this and start saving our breed and the innocent pups/adults that die from it..........

[Sugar's Mom]

not sure this is what you are looking for but we just had this huge discussion here and this is the link. it has lots of valuable info.

Bile Acid Testing

[blitz]

Originally Posted by glory

that is great advice and if the lines are not related or have known carriers in them then you might be able to save your breeding program......as president of the TSFMLS fund and very knowledgeable about livershunt.......I lived that nightmare.......we have a pedigree advisor and very privately done between her and you and she might be able to guide you with some advice if you are interested........All breeders should be bile acid testing their puppies before you sell them.........why let this nightmare become a puppy owners pain......gosh some breeders are even saying to owners that they caused this livershunt.......now if that isn't the biggest crock of bull I ever heard.......livershunt is not cause .....it is inherited....... and we need to find the DNA marker to end this and start saving our breed and the innocent pups/adults that die from it..........

Sorry off topc but HI GLORY. I see that you just joined. I am so happy you are here. Being involved with the TSFMLS fund, you must have much to share with us!!!

[yorkielovs2chat]

Originally Posted by glory

that is great advice and if the lines are not related or have known carriers in them then you might be able to save your breeding program......as president of the TSFMLS fund and very knowledgeable about livershunt.......I lived that nightmare.......we have a pedigree advisor and very privately done between her and you and she might be able to guide you with some advice if you are interested........All breeders should be bile acid testing their puppies before you sell them.........why let this nightmare become a puppy owners pain......gosh some breeders are even saying to owners that they caused this livershunt.......now if that isn't the biggest crock of bull I ever heard.......livershunt is not cause .....it is inherited....... and we need to find the DNA marker to end this and start saving our breed and the innocent pups/adults that die from it..........

So right! Just because you have livershunt, doesn't make you a bad breeder. there are so many good breeders out there who spay and neuter to do their best to protect a health problem that happened. Then there are breeders that because their dogs are winning in the show ring, they continue to breed dogs and blame the owner. I have a friend who has a dog with LS--a rare form but 4 vets and expert at cornell deterimined it IS genetic--breeder doesn't want to admit it and continues to breed and not tell prospective buyers. Then more people have popped up with dogs with high bile acids from same breeder who is praised on these boards and others and breeding some winning dogs.

I would also like to ask--because I am not a breeder--how can breeders prevent health problems? I've met some breeders who will continue to breed dogs who have had stone forming issues, dogs who had eclampsia, dogs who have poor growth, and other problems etc. I have friends who are not yorkie breeders but they say that you ahve to watch the female during pregnancy that she eats enough...etc because that can also lead to future health problems for the litter. Geesh!!! You breeders have so much to think about, I don't know how you do it!! So what is okay to breed and what is not??? I had another breeder tell me that breeding stone problems is not a good idea because it can indicate possible LS problems in the future?????

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by yorkielovs2chat

So right! Just because you have livershunt, doesn't make you a bad breeder. there are so many good breeders out there who spay and neuter to do their best to protect a health problem that happened. Then there are breeders that because their dogs are winning in the show ring, they continue to breed dogs and blame the owner. I have a friend who has a dog with LS--a rare form but 4 vets and expert at cornell deterimined it IS genetic--breeder doesn't want to admit it and continues to breed and not tell prospective buyers. Then more people have popped up with dogs with high bile acids from same breeder who is praised on these boards and others and breeding some winning dogs.

I would also like to ask--because I am not a breeder--how can breeders prevent health problems? I've met some breeders who will continue to breed dogs who have had stone forming issues, dogs who had eclampsia, dogs who have poor growth, and other problems etc. I have friends who are not yorkie breeders but they say that you ahve to watch the female during pregnancy that she eats enough...etc because that can also lead to future health problems for the litter. Geesh!!! You breeders have so much to think about, I don't know how you do it!! So what is okay to breed and what is not??? I had another breeder tell me that breeding stone problems is not a good idea because it can indicate possible LS problems in the future?????

I've said in another post that for me as a breeder if shunts show up in anything I have the dam and sire would be spayed and neutered and also the offspring. Liver shunt is inherited and I wouldn't want to continue with that line that produced the liver shunt period! If that means starting over then for me as a breeder that's what I would do. I had LP show up in my bitch that I started with in my breeding program and now her and everything she's produced including her and my first home bred champion are spayed and neutered because I don't want that in my lines either and so I started over with Cammie and Radar. It's not easy to have to do and LP isn't life threatening but it's a health issue I don't want to pass along either!
I love to win but if it's at the cost of producing unhealthy puppies the win isn't worth it to me!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I've said in another post that for me as a breeder if shunts show up in anything I have the dam and sire would be spayed and neutered and also the offspring. Liver shunt is inherited and I wouldn't want to continue with that line that produced the liver shunt period! If that means starting over then for me as a breeder that's what I would do. I had LP show up in my bitch that I started with in my breeding program and now her and everything she's produced including her and my first home bred champion are spayed and neutered because I don't want that in my lines either and so I started over with Cammie and Radar. It's not easy to have to do and LP isn't life threatening but it's a health issue I don't want to pass along either!
I love to win but if it's at the cost of producing unhealthy puppies the win isn't worth it to me!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I totally agree.
I just wonder why the vet thinks it was a shunt and wouldn't want to start over completely on a guess.

So OP, why did the vet think this?

[glory]

Donna you must be my twin as your story is so similar to mine...........not many breeders ever admit having livershunt and from my very own experience I got livershunt using a stud from a very famous breeder in Ontario, Canada who was the number one breeder in Canada........off course she still insist that she has no livershunt in her line...........well does she bile acid test..........if breeders are not bile acid testing then I would never in my wildest dream buy from them.........I had too much heartache with livershunt to ever ever chance getting hit with that again........the pain never leaves and starting over with all your girls championed and finally of age to breed and find out you have this and have to spay is another heartbreak.........darn these breeders that stick their heads in their butts.......don't they know that we would respect them more for coming clean and or at least trying to do something about their breeding program and stop bringing sick puppies into this world.......another thing...........stay away from any breeders who line breed........unless they are bile acid testing then I would not buy......that is how I got it......all the same dogs in my peds.......thought I was doing a great line breeding........four pups and two with livershunt.......lost one at 4 weeks and sent his body to The University of Prince Edward Island, Canada for testing and that is what I was told happened to him..............poor little guy.......his story is on Terri Shumsky's dedication page as well as Maggie May his sister..........Thank you Donna for restoring my faith that there are good breeders out there and just because breeders want thousands and thousands of dollars for their dogs and sell to famous people does not make them good breeders...........everyday people who don't walk where I walk does not get the stories, so be careful who you buy from...........hopefully the breeder you get your dog from will be responsible enough to tell you the truth and give you names of customers who have bought their dogs and have no health issues.......in Canada you can call our vets and ask if there are any health issues in this breeders line.........I always told my customers to call my vet and gave them his phone number.......Vets are not allowed to lie and cover for anyone with problems........
gloria

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by glory

Donna you must be my twin as your story is so similar to mine...........not many breeders ever admit having livershunt and from my very own experience I got livershunt using a stud from a very famous breeder in Ontario, Canada who was the number one breeder in Canada........off course she still insist that she has no livershunt in her line...........well does she bile acid test..........if breeders are not bile acid testing then I would never in my wildest dream buy from them.........I had too much heartache with livershunt to ever ever chance getting hit with that again........the pain never leaves and starting over with all your girls championed and finally of age to breed and find out you have this and have to spay is another heartbreak.........darn these breeders that stick their heads in their butts.......don't they know that we would respect them more for coming clean and or at least trying to do something about their breeding program and stop bringing sick puppies into this world.......another thing...........stay away from any breeders who line breed........unless they are bile acid testing then I would not buy......that is how I got it......all the same dogs in my peds.......thought I was doing a great line breeding........four pups and two with livershunt.......lost one at 4 weeks and sent his body to The University of Prince Edward Island, Canada for testing and that is what I was told happened to him..............poor little guy.......his story is on Terri Shumsky's dedication page as well as Maggie May his sister..........Thank you Donna for restoring my faith that there are good breeders out there and just because breeders want thousands and thousands of dollars for their dogs and sell to famous people does not make them good breeders...........everyday people who don't walk where I walk does not get the stories, so be careful who you buy from...........hopefully the breeder you get your dog from will be responsible enough to tell you the truth and give you names of customers who have bought their dogs and have no health issues.......in Canada you can call our vets and ask if there are any health issues in this breeders line.........I always told my customers to call my vet and gave them his phone number.......Vets are not allowed to lie and cover for anyone with problems........
gloria

Hi Gloria,
I don't have Liver shunt but Luxating Patellas but if I feel the same as you! Liver shunt is heartbreaking to say the least and I wish all breeders would Bile Acid Test their dogs! Our breed is a wonderful breed and I hope all will try and do the right thing!
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers