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Old 03-11-2008, 07:23 AM   #1
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Default As a breeder, what would you do?

I just picked up my puppy yesterday and took him to the vet today. He is 8 weeks old (I know ) and he was diagnosed with a stage 3 systolic murmur. I paid $900 for him AKC limited . As a side note, I was planning on also buying a female from her in 2 months. I have not talked to her yet, as I wanted to get some input from YT first. The breeder does have a 1 yr warranty for congenital defects. I am willing to wait a few months and see if he grows out of it or if it reduces in stage but because there is no guarantee, would it be appropriate to ask for a discount of say $400 on either this puppy or the pending female? I don't know what she would do with this puppy if I returned it for a replacement in the future~what would you do with it? Give it away or sell it at a low price based on it's health record? I want this to be a win-win for both me/my puppy and the breeder.
Please respond ASAP so I can give my breeder a call soon. Thanks
(I also posted this in the general discussion section~sorry for the duplicate posting but I thought that more posters would see this)
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:16 AM   #2
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As a breeder I would offer to replace the puppy or refund the money. If I got the puppy back I would following the advise of my vet about his condition and if his condition was not too serious I would try to place him in a good home where the people understood his condition.

I have never had a dog with a heart murmur but I have heard that some puppies can outgrow heart murmurs but in some cases they can get worse. I would be concerned about things like how dangerous would it be getting him neutered, teeth cleaned and things like that later in life. If you are going to spend $900 then you need to start with a healthy puppy. If you are willing to take a risk and keep him then I think the breeder should refund part of your money but that is something the both of you would have to decide on.

Last edited by bjh; 03-11-2008 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:28 AM   #3
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BJH~ If you re-homed the puppy into a new home would you charge them your standard fee or discount the dog's selling price? Also, if I keep this puppy and decide to purchase a female from her in 2 months, would it be appropriate to ask the breeder then to discount the female, rather than replace or fully refund the first puppy?
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Last edited by I Miss Shelby; 03-11-2008 at 08:28 AM. Reason: wording
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:30 AM   #4
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I have dealt with heart issues in another breed and it is heartbreaking.
With having a grade 3 Diagnosis, I would take the pup back to the breeder and discuss with him/her your concerns and I would ask for a refund. the pup should have been vet checked by her and she should have known this.
I would not feel comfortable starting out on this foot with the breeder. I would look for another breeder.

Grade one is Innocent,
Grade 2 is Functional

Grade 3 this is Congenital heart defects,
Acquired valvular disease,
Aortic outflow tract obstruction,
dilated cardiomyopathy


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Old 03-11-2008, 08:48 AM   #5
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I'm not a breeder, but I just have to ask. Why would you get another puppy from her program? Unless the new puppy is from a totally separate line, I would ask LOTS of questions. I'm so sorry about your puppy. Did the vet give you any sort of idea what you are facing?
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:53 AM   #6
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I guess ask yourself if you will be able to deal with this condition. I have heard that they can go away as they get older, but I just read in my vet book that it is a progressive problem. If it doesn't go away will you be able to deal with the problems and vet bills that will go along with this condition. As a breeder I would give you a refund, or a new pup , or big discount/or free and let you keep the pup if you wanted. At the very least you should be able to return the pup and apply that $$ to your female you wanted to get. Does your vet feel that there is a possibility that the 3 will go away?
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:02 AM   #7
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Default heartbreaking

As heartbreaking as it is, I also would take the pup back. I had this happen when we were purchasing our first yorkie. Right before she shipped they found a shunt in her leg?. Sorry, forget the name of what it is called, anyways, we choose another puppy by the advice of our vet. The breeder and her vet didn't think it would be a big deal but had no problem letting me choose another puppy. The breeder and I stay in touch and I found out the puppy had the surgery. After the surgery she died.

I would absolutely talk to the breeder. Good breeders always will give a health guarantee. Good Luck
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:24 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Miss Shelby View Post
BJH~ If you re-homed the puppy into a new home would you charge them your standard fee or discount the dog's selling price? Also, if I keep this puppy and decide to purchase a female from her in 2 months, would it be appropriate to ask the breeder then to discount the female, rather than replace or fully refund the first puppy?
If the puppy had health issues I would not try to sell him but try to find a home where someone would be willing care for him and his condition. I have never dealt with this sort of problem but I would not want to euthanize the puppy as long as he was not suffering. If you still wanted another dog from the same breeder and wanted to keep the puppy then she should probably just give you a female or let you pay the difference if she charges more for females. As long as you are not planning on breeding I see no problem getting another dog from the same breeder as long as it is healthy. I just think it would be wiser to return the puppy now or you might be in for a lot of heartache.
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:31 AM   #9
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You know how hard I am on breeders...so this situation should not have come up in the first place. If this puppy was checked by a competant vet, the defect would have been found and the puppy would have not been offered for sale...having say that, I would return him to the breeder.

I would as a breeder I would find a good "special" needs home in lieu of future vet fees...he may have a long life, he may not.

Last edited by YorkieRose; 03-11-2008 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 03-11-2008, 10:10 AM   #10
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I would speak with the breeder,, as soon as possible,,, after having been given possible synarios by your Vet,,, as to what may or may not happen to this puppy,, I dont really know but sounds to me like its probably a problem he was born with a health check was not done prior to getting the young pup,, but think the breeder would want whatever is best for the puppy as well as keeping her clients pleased,, in my personal case ,, our Daisy was purchased in hopes of breeding her,, turned out she has demodectic mange,, so I had to have her spayed,, but the breeder GAVE us a new fully registered female Puppy as a replacement,, no charge, ,and allowed us to keep Daisy,, as she said she'd never take her away from US or US away from Daisy,, which is exactly what i'd do in her place,, Best of Luck,, to you and the little man!
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Old 03-11-2008, 11:08 AM   #11
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I talked with the breeder today and of course she is willing to replace the puppy. She does have a good reputation in the area (I also talked to her vet when I was looking for puppies). I asked her to talk with her husband about a major discount on the pending female rather than replacing him. She is willing to work something out with me. The replacement would be from a different litter, same sire different dame. I had also planned on getting a female from this second litter. I am thinking about this offer: buy the female at full price, replace my male (Scooter) with another male, and basically buy Scooter back for $200. So I would end up keeping Scooter for $200 and receive a male replacement. I hate the thought of returning him because I don't know where he could get a better home than with us. My home environment is pretty quiet and stress-free so he wouldn't be over stimulated, etc. I'm willing to be sure that he gets good vet care and take him to the vet cardiologist for an ultrasound/ECHO, etc. But I would like to end up with 2 healthy dogs from the begining.
BTW, my vet said that Scooter has a 20-50% chance that he will out grow the murmur but that he most likely would not live the long life that our others did. We go back in 2 weeks for another check.
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Old 03-11-2008, 11:22 AM   #12
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I think it is wonderful that you are willing to give this little puppy a wonderful home. I hope all works out for you. I personally think she should let you just keep the puppy and replace him at not cost. Did you ask her if she has had any problems in the past with heart defects? How big is your puppy now?
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Old 03-11-2008, 11:30 AM   #13
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I think it is wonderful that you are going to give this little one such a wonderful home. What a blessing!
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Old 03-11-2008, 11:33 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Miss Shelby View Post
I talked with the breeder today and of course she is willing to replace the puppy. She does have a good reputation in the area (I also talked to her vet when I was looking for puppies). I asked her to talk with her husband about a major discount on the pending female rather than replacing him. She is willing to work something out with me. The replacement would be from a different litter, same sire different dame. I had also planned on getting a female from this second litter. I am thinking about this offer: buy the female at full price, replace my male (Scooter) with another male, and basically buy Scooter back for $200. So I would end up keeping Scooter for $200 and receive a male replacement. I hate the thought of returning him because I don't know where he could get a better home than with us. My home environment is pretty quiet and stress-free so he wouldn't be over stimulated, etc. I'm willing to be sure that he gets good vet care and take him to the vet cardiologist for an ultrasound/ECHO, etc. But I would like to end up with 2 healthy dogs from the begining.
BTW, my vet said that Scooter has a 20-50% chance that he will out grow the murmur but that he most likely would not live the long life that our others did. We go back in 2 weeks for another check.
If this is a congenital issue and sounds like it is...I would not accept any puppy from either the sire or dam...unless she provided to me...a detailed cardiologist's report stating the animal was free from this congenital defect. I don't believe...and maybe I'm wrong...that it's a condition where both parents are carriers...but you need (and the breeder must) know which animal has this condition they're passing on. If she's not willing to go to that expense...she needs to retire both her sire and dam.

I had just an ultrasound performed on Reese at a cost of $225. Had he required a full workup...first visit..the price ranged from $500 - $700. Cardiologists do not come cheap...

It's sad and I feel badly for you and baby pup...
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Old 03-11-2008, 11:35 AM   #15
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Thanks for everybodies help. I appreciate it very much.
The breeder said that she has never had this health issue come up before and she has been breeding Yorkies exclusivley for 8 years. He is only 8 weeks old and I know now that this is not best but that is what all the breeders in my area are selling them at. I was very pleased with the breeder , her home and her personal Yorkies all looked healthy and very clean and happy/socialable. I just want what's best for this puppy.
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