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Old 11-21-2007, 01:32 PM   #1
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Default USDA Licensing

I am hoping for some thoughts about USDA licensing.

Though I recognize the validity of the statement that USDA licensing doesn't really mean anything because of the inability to enforce regulations, at the same time, we chose to be licensed because in our area there are a number of disreputable breeders. And around here, right or not, many view licensing as at least a minimum of needed regulation. (We do not legally have to be licensed, as we don't sell to brokers.)

However, I read on this and other forums and articles, that breeders are being labeled as puppy mills merely because they are USDA licensed. Now, I realize that licensing doesn't mean you aren't a puppy mill. But nor does it automatically mean you ARE a puppy mill. What disturbs me is the arbitrary labeling of breeders with no other information than the fact that they are USDA licensed.

And it makes it very difficult to make a decision about whether or not to be licensed. Licensing adds (again, whether it's right or not) a degree of legitimacy in our local area. But it seems like it might take away legitimacy for our clients adopting on the internet.

I guess what I am looking for here is an opinion on whether to be licensed or not from breeders. And from potential "adopters", what do you think? Does the fact that a breeder is licensed make you shy away?

I do want to make clear that I'm not trying to begin an argument. I realize that there are varying views on this subject. I'm just trying to decide what is best to do.
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Old 11-21-2007, 02:58 PM   #2
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Default license

I used to read a Commerical breeders forum..learned a lot. One was the rules and regs as how the dogs must be housed by USDA breeders. Dogs can not be kept in the same area as the breeder lives..puppies can not be raised in those area. There are other USDA regs that are not in the dogs best interest to me..not when raising family pets.
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Old 11-21-2007, 03:01 PM   #3
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I think knowing a breeder was licensed would make me feel more comfortable. Although I've never to my knowledge bought from a licensed breeder.
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Old 11-21-2007, 03:07 PM   #4
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If I was buying livestock I would agree...but not companion animals..JMO
Most pet shops puppies are from commerical USDA breeders...so if it was a plus, then the healthiest pups would come from dealers/pet stores, correct?
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Old 11-21-2007, 03:10 PM   #5
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USDA is basically for commercial breeders. Mills don't usually follow anyone rules and are law breakers. So laws don't affect them anyway.

USDA dogs must be kept according to guidelines set more for farm type raising than companion raising.

I want my pup raised in the home with all the noise and socialization they can get. You can not keep your breeding dogs in the home under USDA.

I do not think it adds any credibility to a breeding program. People have their opinions about USDA breeders because of the guidelines of kennels, separation, and lack of socialization because of the rules.
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Old 11-21-2007, 04:46 PM   #6
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I thank you all for the input thus far, and appreciate your taking the time to explain how you view licensing.

You know, I have read those guidelines front to back, and can find no restriction about raising pups in the home. It does say that the dogs may not be housed in the same facility as any other BUSINESS, but nothing about living areas. I wonder if this has changed recently?

I find it interesting to contemplate all the different views on this. For example, because of my experience with breeders raising pups in their homes (I am not saying this is true of all, or of those posting here, just my experience) in my mind this has a bad connotation. I have never seen any home with more than 4 dogs or pups in it that I would consider sanitary. For this reason, I prefer a living area that can be easily cleaned and sanitized. And I personally have a problem with exposing young pups to the people and other pets that routinely visit homes. (Just my opinion, not knocking anyone)

I do certainly see that if a breeder keeps their dogs and pups in a kennel all the time, with little or no socialization, that would definitely be a problem. That is not how we raise our puppies, but I know that many breeders do, and it sounds like those that do have ruined it for those that don't.

From the posts so far, and other info I've read, it sounds like the majority opinion is that all licensed breeders are akin to puppy mills and do not socialize their puppies. In all honesty, I find that to make as much sense as if I were to say that all puppies raised in homes are in unsanitary conditions.
But regardless of my personal views, since we have no real need to be licensed, I will carefully consider the pros and cons of renewing our license.

Again, thank you all for your input (and any more that may be posted), and I hope my opinions are taken as just that, opinions. I am new to this board, but really appreciate the spirit of true open discussion that I have seen.
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:32 PM   #7
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USDA licensing is a big red flag for most knowledgable people looking for a puppy. It's for high volume, commercial breeding facilities. While I have seen pictures of some state of the art facilities that look antiseptically clean, most people link to the term USDA to puppymills.

While being raised in a cage may be fine for the turkey I will put on my table tomorrow, I would never choose a puppy to be my companion that had been raised that way. Studies show how important frequent human contact is the early weeks is to proper socialization later on.

If you have the option not to be licensed with the USDA, I certainly would not do it.
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:15 PM   #8
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I guess it depends on why a person is breeding..business or hobby. I do know one thing, if you have a USDA, you will be considered a commerical breeder and not be allowed to join Yorkie clubs...I realize it is not important to many, but I would perfer not to do anything that would bar me from a breed club, whether I wanted to join or not...you never know what you might want to pursue 5, 10 yrs from now...
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:58 PM   #9
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These last 2 posts bring up good points. Thanks to you also.
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Old 11-21-2007, 09:58 PM   #10
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I personally would never buy from a breeder that was USDA liscensed. That is a huge red flag to me too. I have a very narrow view of what a reputable breeder is and USDA liscensed is not part of it at all.
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Old 11-21-2007, 11:29 PM   #11
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I would not buy from a USDA licensed breeder....
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Old 11-23-2007, 09:27 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC's View Post
USDA is basically for commercial breeders. Mills don't usually follow anyone rules and are law breakers. So laws don't affect them anyway.



I do not think it adds any credibility to a breeding program. People have their opinions about USDA breeders because of the guidelines of kennels, separation, and lack of socialization because of the rules.

i agree with this. the license just tells me they have A LOT of dogs. it doesn't tell me anything about their breeding practices, health, or soundness of these dogs.
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Old 11-23-2007, 09:31 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosoma View Post
I thank you all for the input thus far, and appreciate your taking the time to explain how you view licensing.

You know, I have read those guidelines front to back, and can find no restriction about raising pups in the home. It does say that the dogs may not be housed in the same facility as any other BUSINESS, but nothing about living areas. I wonder if this has changed recently?

I find it interesting to contemplate all the different views on this. For example, because of my experience with breeders raising pups in their homes (I am not saying this is true of all, or of those posting here, just my experience) in my mind this has a bad connotation. I have never seen any home with more than 4 dogs or pups in it that I would consider sanitary. For this reason, I prefer a living area that can be easily cleaned and sanitized. And I personally have a problem with exposing young pups to the people and other pets that routinely visit homes. (Just my opinion, not knocking anyone)

I do certainly see that if a breeder keeps their dogs and pups in a kennel all the time, with little or no socialization, that would definitely be a problem. That is not how we raise our puppies, but I know that many breeders do, and it sounds like those that do have ruined it for those that don't.

From the posts so far, and other info I've read, it sounds like the majority opinion is that all licensed breeders are akin to puppy mills and do not socialize their puppies. In all honesty, I find that to make as much sense as if I were to say that all puppies raised in homes are in unsanitary conditions.
But regardless of my personal views, since we have no real need to be licensed, I will carefully consider the pros and cons of renewing our license.

Again, thank you all for your input (and any more that may be posted), and I hope my opinions are taken as just that, opinions. I am new to this board, but really appreciate the spirit of true open discussion that I have seen.
just to let you know, i have 4 dogs and my home is extremely clean. the cleanliness is due to the owner, not the dogs.


just curious, what type of dog/dogs do you breed and what is you kennel name?
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Last edited by lisatodd; 11-23-2007 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 11-23-2007, 10:39 AM   #14
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I have six adults in my living room and my babies are born in my bedroom and stay there until I feel they are old enough to go into the 'big dog room". my house is clean with no odor. As Lisa pointed out, the cleanliness is from the owner not the dog.
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Old 11-23-2007, 11:43 AM   #15
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Thanks for the comments....in saying that about dogs in the home, I wasn't meaning to imply that those who keep several dogs in their homes aren't clean. I know it is possible, I just haven't seen it. I hope that no one feels I was attacking those who do this; that wasn't my intention at all.

I guess the point I was trying to make is how interesting the difference of viewpoint is depending on what you are familiar with. In my area, it is the breeders who do not have any facilities set up that are the ones who don't care well for the dogs (no shots/records, no vet checks, they alter birthdates to make the dogs appear smaller for their age, have little control over breeding, sometimes horrendous living conditions, and the list goes on). So around here, being licensed means that at least someone checks on you, however inadequate that may be.

But it sounds like that is not the situation in most areas....which is exactly what I wanted to find out. We just have to find a way to balance the different viewpoints....if we aren't licensed, we lose credibility with locals. And if we are, we lose credibility with long distance. It just seems arbitrary, since it doesn't actually indicate quality of care either way.

It's not a big issue for us, since we don't have a large number of puppies and most of our puppies are reserved by repeat parents. But I did want to consider all the pros and cons. Again, I really appreciate everyone's thoughts.
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