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Old 05-19-2017, 01:07 PM   #16
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Your story about Jilly always gives me goosebumps!
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:17 PM   #17
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Wow Jilly is one tough cookie!! I was actually afraid to ask if she survived, but I'm SO glad to hear she did!!! Otherwise, it'd be too tragic. But the pain and suffering she went through. My goodness. And good on her (and you) for not having any post-traumatic fear. That's so hard to come by.

Ohh.. I recall on another post that you commented on the big black umbrella. Now I know why.

Scottie and Casie senses other dogs a mile away (sadly for me, they are very fearful of other dogs, bark non-stop at them, and I live in a super dog-dense neighborhood). In fact, Scottie is paranoid and constantly looking behind to see if anyone's there. Sometimes he gets me paranoid too - I turn around an no one is there! lol
Sorry, I forgot to add that little Jilly survived that attack to live another 6 years or so! Dogs - she endured wound care x3 daily and rehab exercises and was on pain medication the first few post-op days as a real stoic, as most dogs are. After beating that dog off her, I spoke and prayed aloud soothingly as I could manage as I carried her home, even though I thought I could feel my heart thumping in my chest and eardrums(!) and by the time I got her in the house to swaddle her in a clean towel and get keys & car, she'd stopped seizing, regained her composure(!) while inside I was a total wreck, capital W! Plus, the vet gave pain medication as soon as he'd checked her out and gone over her medical history. I've read that the sooner adrenaline is reduced in the body after physical/psychological trauma, the better stress is dealt with short- and long-term. Wish I'd had some Valium or something that day to take for my runaway nerves! She dealt with the whole experience far, far, far better than I did.

Poor little Casie and Scottie! It's not really funny but their story made me want to grin for just a second seeing little Scottie looking back, checking out whatever might be lurking behind him, in my mind's eye!!! Scottie's NOT about to be snuck up on from behind! Sounds like both are anxious and hyper-vigilant on walks, poor little guys!
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:31 PM   #18
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Your story about Jilly always gives me goosebumps!
I know. It's one of the worst times of my life and what's worse, as far as I know, when a dog attacks silently and suddenly from the back or side, sight unseen until the last split-second, there's no preventing it. Shame on people for allowing their dogs outside off lead! The vet said Jilly could easily have died had I not had that walking stick as that dog did not respond to kicks or beating with all my strength until somehow I must have gotten the eye I was going for. And I guess I'll forever hear that awful little yelp Jilly made when he grabbed her up into the air with his jaws around her whole little body, though I try not to mention it. It forever changed how I walk dogs in my charge.
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:53 AM   #19
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Training a dog in schutzhund doesn't make them aggressive. In fact, it trains them when it's appropriate to back off etc. Of course the breeds most natural to it are Malinois, Shepherds, etc. I can't see a Yorkie doing 'seriously' but you never know!

Here's some cute videos of little dogs doing it though!

Check out this Chi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpvngUUXemQ

Great article by Karen Pryor:
https://clickertraining.com/node/1111

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Schutzhund originated as a breeding suitability test. A dog who could not do the work was not considered fit for breeding. Later, it became a sport, but even now for specific breeds in many countries, the offspring of a dog without a Schutzhund title can not be registered. I think this is a good idea; it standardizes temperament and structure within the breed and ensures continued working ability for a working breed.
In this country, Schutzhund is merely a sport, but it's still an important one. It is an advanced partnership with the dog, true teamwork (or it should be!). Rather than a mere few minutes of performance, it is a triathalon for dogs. Though known for its protection work, Schutzhund consists of three phases, Tracking, Obedience and Protection. Dogs must qualify in all three phases. It's like Michelin Tire said: "Power is nothing without control."


I like the Schutzhund obedience style a lot; it emphasizes enthusiasm and willingness as well as precision. Check out these videos of obedience and protection by a Doberman completing a Schutzhund III routine. Tell me that's not exciting! (Sabine Wiedemeyer handling Lennox von Aurachgrund, taking 2nd place in 2006 Deutschen Meisterschaft [German all-breed nationals] with 100-98-95 [100 points tracking, 98 points obedience, 95 points protection, out of a perfect 300])


Because Schutzhund expects -- requires -- the dog to be in a state of extreme arousal, obedience and control are far more necessary and more highly trained than in most dog venues. The dog must be able to hear and respond to its handler when in full fighting drive. This requires not only good training but also a good dog, one with proper genetic temperament. That's what makes the sport an excellent "character test" for dogs.

Many people understand that Schutzhund is a worthy dog sport, but I've also been criticized publicly and privately for participating in this sport. I find that frankly ridiculous. Let me address a few of the more common concerns here. :-)

"YOU'RE TEACHING THE DOG TO BITE PEOPLE." -- Um, no. :-) First of all, any dog person should know that all dogs can and will bite with provocation; heck, *I* will bite in the right circumstances! But more importantly, biting is just a behavior, and a Schutzhund dog will, like any trained dog, learn stimulus control. A cue begins and ends the bite, just as a cue begins and ends the down. And there are a host of very specific cues for the bite -- it's not just a free for all! If you've ever played a game of tug with a dog, you've done a miniature version of Schutzhund protection work.
"YOU'RE TEACHING THE DOG TO BITE PEOPLE IN SNOWSUITS." -- This accusation had to be a personal favorite of mine. I have video of us working this winter, in which my helper is wearing tan Carhartt coveralls and in which I am wearing identical tan Carhartt coveralls. Amazingly enough, the dog went to the right person when cued. :-) Sheesh.

"YOU'RE ABUSIVE TO THE DOGS/YOU THREATEN THE DOGS TO MAKE THEM BITE OUT OF FEAR." -- No. Schutzhund training starts as young as 8 weeks (younger, if the litter is born to a Schutzhund breeder), and all initial training is done as play. Only after the behaviors are well-started does the dog see aggression/threat from the helper, and then it is raised in small doses so as not to overwhelm the dog; the dog must always believe that he can "win" over the helper. Good Schutzhund trainers do not hurt or frighten dogs into biting. (Note: obviously there are always a few freaks in any sport, and Schutzhund can attract a few "macho" morons. Just as there are idjits who will put a shock collar on a dog to teach it an agility dogwalk, there are a few idjits who will try stupid things in bitework. This is no more correct or representative of the field as a whole than the electric collar is for agility.)

"THE DOGS DON'T ENJOY IT." -- Please, just come watch Laev in action. She lives for this.
"YOU CAN'T TRAIN IT POSITIVELY, SO YOU MUST BE HURTING YOUR DOGS." -- Again, please, just watch. Ask Laev if she feels abused. ;-) Yeah, there are traditional training recipes which aren't as dog-friendly, but we're certainly not bound to use them.
"SCHUTZHUND PEOPLE TREAT THEIR DOGS AS THINGS, NOT PETS." -- A good friend of mine came once with me to training and left, angry and disgusted, with this declaration. I was and remain honestly confused by his reaction (he never discussed it with me), as my dogs are cherished members of my family. Yes, some people in the sport use dogs as tools toward self-promotion, but that occurs in other sports as well! Laev sleeps beside my bed and Shakespeare shares my couch; they're my dogs first of all.
Finally, Schutzhund and similar sports/breeding suitability tests are vital for our dog community. Really! Almost all police dogs, drug dogs, accelerant/bomb detection dogs and military dogs, as well as a very high percentage of search dogs, come from Schutzhund breeders and Schutzhund lines. Why? Because it still works as a breeding suitability test, and dogs from these lines are more likely to have the correct temperament and physical structure to do the work, saving thousands of dollars in "wash-outs" from untested lines.



Similarly, Schutzhund and similar training preserves the breeds; if a Doberman was designed as a protection dog, it had better be able to work as a protection dog, or it's not a Doberman, no matter what its papers say. Max von Stephanitz developed Schutzhund as a breeding suitability test for the German Shepherd Dog; if all GSDs were expected to be able to pass such a test now, we wouldn't see such widespread reactivity and fear-aggression in the breed, or such poor hips.



Finally, Schutzhund offers excellent training and physical/mental outlet for the dogs. The socialization afforded by a good Schutzhund club is superb, and the Schutzhund dog gets far more physical exercise, mental stimulation and sheer fun than most pets!
So that's why we do what we do -- it's fun, first of all, and it's a worthy venue, second. And of course we do other sports as well; Laev has a couple of entry level titles so far elsewhere. And at those other venues, she is mannerly, safe, and a good breed ambassador. :-)
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:58 AM   #20
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I've read and heard that most people pay for expensive Schutzhund-trained dogs for aggressive attack purposes in order to save their lives from some type of anticipated physical attack solely intended to maim, kill or kidnap.

Yes, they are socialized, trained in tracking and obedience trained in order to strictly condition them to prescribed behavior in any and all situations they could face and strictly trained to obey all commands instantly and without hesitation but basically I understand that basically Schutzhund training essentially programs the dog to attack and totally disable/kill anything coming toward its charge either on command or its own initiative.

During a Sunday walk years ago, my tiny 3 lb. Jilly, with a tiny little snarl, instinctively jumped out in front of me to 'protect' me when a 65+ lb. Dalmatian suddenly rushed from the side bushes, in her brave attempt to protect ME, a 125 lb. woman, from the big dog! I didn't have to teach her a thing, nor should anyone teach a dog under 75 lbs.+ to try to protect them.

Tragically, the Dalmatian set upon Jilly with its teeth, picked her whole little body up in his mouth and proceeded to savage her as I used my walking stick on his head, eyes, nose, mouth with my right arm and held onto her leash with my left hand, trying to free her as I tried to kill him before he killed her. I guess the stick finally hit an eyeball or nose of something as he suddenly backed off his lacerated victim but God help me, who wants anything other than a big, powerful brute of a dog trying to protect them when a smaller dog is often the one who ends of in surgery, painful rehab or dead in the ER vet clinic? Dogs are often instinctively fiercely protective of their human as I sadly found out when Jilly was attacked for her best efforts.

The smaller dog is almost always the pitiful, lacerated, bloody loser when a larger dog or human goes after it for trying to protect its human charge as any animal intent on attack can be utterly and savagely vicious and can sustain an ferocious attack sickeningly long after their prey goes eternally still. I would never train anything other than a large, powerful breed from a genetic line bred specifically for protection/attack aggression/working tendencies and only then in the unlikely event I had an unproven stalker/suspected threat that LEOs were prevented from taking steps against until said villain actually broke the law. But I would never try to train anything but a large, powerful brute of a naturally aggressive dog in Schutzhund protection/attack tactics as anything smaller is all too often just a victim in waiting.
Your story is sooo scary. I can only imagine the fear. We've had a few close scares but never anything this bad. I imagine that fear would've been ingrained in you in the future.

I agree, most dogs instinctively will do this, no matter their size. And that breeds better suited to the protection 'lifestyle' would be best to train in this particular sport.
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Old 05-21-2017, 08:12 AM   #21
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Training a dog in schutzhund doesn't make them aggressive. In fact, it trains them when it's appropriate to back off etc. Of course the breeds most natural to it are Malinois, Shepherds, etc. I can't see a Yorkie doing 'seriously' but you never know!

You are so correct! I trained dogs for two police departments while working my way through college. Many dogs "flunked" because they did not have the disposition. And that goes either way - either too aggressive or not aggressive enough.

People always asked me to train their household pets to be "attack dogs" - always seemed hard to explain that we train these dogs to find or "take down" the bad guys but the MAJOR point here is that the dog does not make the decision, the handler does. So training a dog to do a take down or hold is dangerous if the handler is not there to manage the situation that is taking place. Training a dog to do a task that is not going to be supervised by a human is a dangerous thing. The human is the leader and determines what the dog does.

So it is not as slick or romantic as it seems. These trained dogs have to always be supervised and have the special temperament to take the supervision.

Some times the biggest, meanest acting dog is the first one to run under the car when the first shot is fired, while the chihuahua is on the scent trail snarling
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Old 05-21-2017, 08:26 AM   #22
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Training a dog in schutzhund doesn't make them aggressive. In fact, it trains them when it's appropriate to back off etc. Of course the breeds most natural to it are Malinois, Shepherds, etc. I can't see a Yorkie doing 'seriously' but you never know!

You are so correct! I trained dogs for two police departments while working my way through college. Many dogs "flunked" because they did not have the disposition. And that goes either way - either too aggressive or not aggressive enough.

People always asked me to train their household pets to be "attack dogs" - always seemed hard to explain that we train these dogs to find or "take down" the bad guys but the MAJOR point here is that the dog does not make the decision, the handler does. So training a dog to do a take down or hold is dangerous if the handler is not there to manage the situation that is taking place. Training a dog to do a task that is not going to be supervised by a human is a dangerous thing. The human is the leader and determines what the dog does.

So it is not as slick or romantic as it seems. These trained dogs have to always be supervised and have the special temperament to take the supervision.

Some times the biggest, meanest acting dog is the first one to run under the car when the first shot is fired, while the chihuahua is on the scent trail snarling
YES! lol... that is the key. So many people are like 'oh my dog would be an amazing police dog!!!" Um, nope, lol. The police can't have a bunch of barking aggressive dogs without a clear head on their shoulders.
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Old 05-21-2017, 09:18 AM   #23
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You are so right Brister! K9 officers take their dogs to schools and the little kids are all over them, and these dogs than can take down a 250pound man love it
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Old 05-21-2017, 09:44 AM   #24
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I just don't think it's great for any dogs teeth and jaws but that's just my opinion. I have heard of it used to train fighting Pitts.
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Old 05-21-2017, 02:36 PM   #25
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I just don't think it's great for any dogs teeth and jaws but that's just my opinion. I have heard of it used to train fighting Pitts.
Schutzhund? Not likely. I feel like it's a pretty dignified sport from what I've seen. Nobody who is fighting their dogs underground or w/e are going to pay any amount of money for professional classes like this from trainers. It's a dog sport just like how agility is, weight pulling, nose work, etc. But like I said not something that would be recommended for yorkies or most breeds besides the guardian type.

Are you thinking of the ones whose dogs hang off like big tires/toys etc in trees? There are definitely idiots out there who misuse these tools and try to get their dog to be aggressive but a lot of times it's simply good exercise. I belong to a few FB groups for "fit" dogs and many pet owners who want their dog to be in shape use flirt poles etc (I like these too - attach a toy to the end of it and the dogs chase it, it provides a great outlet for them).

It's probably not good for teeth/jaw long term to be swinging around off peoples arms however I know the people who do it take big precautions. Also the sport isn't *all* that, either, it's about a lot of other things and behaviors. I've even seen police dogs with crowns on their teeth for protection!! My dads JRT mix used to hang on to the toy and not let go and we would lift her in the air. She's older now and hasn't in years but she used to love it.

Like weight pull is another one that rubs me the wrong way but I just don't know enough about it to judge.
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Old 05-21-2017, 02:46 PM   #26
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Here's a video that kind of explains it better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzLh12Q1bqQ
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Old 05-21-2017, 03:10 PM   #27
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Schutzhund? Not likely. I feel like it's a pretty dignified sport from what I've seen. Nobody who is fighting their dogs underground or w/e are going to pay any amount of money for professional classes like this from trainers. It's a dog sport just like how agility is, weight pulling, nose work, etc. But like I said not something that would be recommended for yorkies or most breeds besides the guardian type.

Are you thinking of the ones whose dogs hang off like big tires/toys etc in trees? There are definitely idiots out there who misuse these tools and try to get their dog to be aggressive but a lot of times it's simply good exercise. I belong to a few FB groups for "fit" dogs and many pet owners who want their dog to be in shape use flirt poles etc (I like these too - attach a toy to the end of it and the dogs chase it, it provides a great outlet for them).

It's probably not good for teeth/jaw long term to be swinging around off peoples arms however I know the people who do it take big precautions. Also the sport isn't *all* that, either, it's about a lot of other things and behaviors. I've even seen police dogs with crowns on their teeth for protection!! My dads JRT mix used to hang on to the toy and not let go and we would lift her in the air. She's older now and hasn't in years but she used to love it.

Like weight pull is another one that rubs me the wrong way but I just don't know enough about it to judge.
I have heard of many people training their pit for fighting by having them hang/hold onto an item that is tied to a rope in like a tree. Hanging on to anything by your mouth and holding all your weight just seems bad for teeth and jaws. I would love to hear what vets have to say about it. I'm not saying the pit fighters pay for classes they just do it on their own and not as a sport as a training method. We have the pole with the rope and toy and Joey loves it but we don't pull it that hard and don't hang him from it. They had one at bff and Joey just loves it.
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Old 05-21-2017, 03:14 PM   #28
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I think I misunderstood by what the op said which was holding the dogs up by a rope they were bitting on but now I see that is not what it is.
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Old 05-21-2017, 06:00 PM   #29
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They are taught to not let go until called off. But they are also taught where and how to hit. The dog's neck strength is significant.
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Old 05-22-2017, 02:28 PM   #30
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I have heard of many people training their pit for fighting by having them hang/hold onto an item that is tied to a rope in like a tree. Hanging on to anything by your mouth and holding all your weight just seems bad for teeth and jaws. I would love to hear what vets have to say about it. I'm not saying the pit fighters pay for classes they just do it on their own and not as a sport as a training method. We have the pole with the rope and toy and Joey loves it but we don't pull it that hard and don't hang him from it. They had one at bff and Joey just loves it.
Oh yeah there are definitely those idiots that do that and have NO idea what they are really doing but Schutzhund isn't really about that so much. It's more for those who want their dogs in personal protection which not many dogs are actually qualified to do... it's a pretty serious sport though not something your average joe can just do every other weekend or something (like agility for example).

Like said above, Yorkies are already so fearless, I wouldn't want them getting hurt or killed trying to protect me. I want to protect them ya know? So yeah I would say for most Yorkies, it's not the best sport! haha
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